Why I am optimistic about next season already.

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mikiemo83 said:
Andy Reid needs him to return. Reid can't see his pecker and wants to know if he will finish today or tomorrow
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Ah, Andy Reid.

He is sometimes called Macellarius Horologium by those who have followed his coaching career.

(Actually, I have never heard him called by that moniker. But what better place to start using it than on PatriotsPlanet?)
 
Oh my Pats peeps, there are no reasons to be optimistic. ..CPTK and NFL-Know have been trying to tell us that it's all over but the crying for how long now? Oh why oh why don't we listen? :coffee: Well, besides that we have a "be nice to fvcktards mostly if we can" policy here ROFL
 
Patriots-Lifer said:
Players who went down due to injuries that should be back.

Vince Wilfork, yes an Achilles injury can be a long term problem but he is not the type to not do all he can to return.

Tommy Kelly, His knee injury should not be an issue at all. He will also be a season in to exposure to the Pat's program so he will know what is expected.
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I wasn't particularly optimistic about Wilfork making it back due to his age (he turns 33 in mid-season), weight and role on the DL, and my personal observation that he wasn't playing as well as he had in 2012 (though "slow starts" are not uncommon among older linemen on both sides of the ball). Kelly was clearly out-playing him, by my personal eyeball test, and PFF's grades, which came out after Kelly was injured, seemed to confirm all that. Anyway, my estimation of the odds for Wilfork returning took another hit after reading this article:

http://lowerextremityreview.com/article/return-to-football-after-achilles-tendon-rupture

(There are also implications here regarding TJ Moe's potential for perhaps even making the roster or PS in 2014.)

Another factor to consider, from the team's perspective, is that a Wilfork "honorable retirement" adds about $8M to cap space. If that happens (and the timing of it may be critical to off-season plans for the Pats), for me the central question wrt the immediate future of the DL becomes, "what's Siliga's upside?" He developed to a somewhat more than adequate level (in a Wilfork-type role) very quickly under BB's personal tutelage. We may or may not have seen Siliga's ceiling, in spite of his "pedigree". If the coaches think we haven't, it may make other questions regarding FAs and high-pick DTs moot.
 
TipRoast said:
Ah, Andy Reid.

He is sometimes called Macellarius Horologium by those who have followed his coaching career.

(Actually, I have never heard him called by that moniker. But what better place to start using it than on PatriotsPlanet?)
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Sounds like a character in a Terry Pratchett or Neil Gaiman novel.
 
AZPats said:
I think you have forgotten Armstead, Zuscevics, Spikes, and perhaps the big WR who could become a H-Back/move TE to replace APerp.
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You are correct I left off Armsted. The reason is none of us has seen him take a snap in the NFL. So it is hard to be optimistic about a guy that is a total unknown.
Zuscevics I only expect to be a developmental player this coming season.
Spiked I expect is gone.
 
Tommy Kelly tore his ACL in week 5. That gives him 8 to 9 months to rehab until the start of training camp, right?
 
MaineMan said:
I wasn't particularly optimistic about Wilfork making it back due to his age (he turns 33 in mid-season), weight and role on the DL, and my personal observation that he wasn't playing as well as he had in 2012 (though "slow starts" are not uncommon among older linemen on both sides of the ball). Kelly was clearly out-playing him, by my personal eyeball test, and PFF's grades, which came out after Kelly was injured, seemed to confirm all that. Anyway, my estimation of the odds for Wilfork returning took another hit after reading this article:

http://lowerextremityreview.com/article/return-to-football-after-achilles-tendon-rupture

(There are also implications here regarding TJ Moe's potential for perhaps even making the roster or PS in 2014.)

Another factor to consider, from the team's perspective, is that a Wilfork "honorable retirement" adds about $8M to cap space. If that happens (and the timing of it may be critical to off-season plans for the Pats), for me the central question wrt the immediate future of the DL becomes, "what's Siliga's upside?" He developed to a somewhat more than adequate level (in a Wilfork-type role) very quickly under BB's personal tutelage. We may or may not have seen Siliga's ceiling, in spite of his "pedigree". If the coaches think we haven't, it may make other questions regarding FAs and high-pick DTs moot.
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I do not question your assessment of the Achilles tendon injuries So yes Wilfork may be done. As for Sealver Siliga he is 6'2" 325 Now this is the same height and weight they have for Vince so who knows how accurate it really is. In 5 games Sealver Siliga started 4 had 9 tackles 14 assist and 3 sacks. Not stats that will jump out at you right now but give the guy a season in the Patriots strength and conditioning program and he could be a solid player. Remember Ninkovich was tossed around the league before he landed in New England too.
Chris Jones, was a Rookie out of Bowling Green. He had little experience with anything that looked like a pro program and had to learn it all on the fly. 6"1" 309 is not great size for a DT but the kid showed some solid ability. He played in 13 games with 11 starts he had 25 tackles and 29 assist with 6. sacks. If nothing else he looks to be solid depth. Joe Vellano I was not as impressed with but he has the potential to stick around as more depth.
 
NFL-Know said:
ROFL You need to learn now that if you express realist and/or factual information in here and it goes against the proverbial PP fans grain, then you will get this type of mental giant hammering from many. :stirpot:

The last 10 years Pats end of not winning SB, playoffs, even regular season motto is simply "There is always next year"..... :thumb:
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Well if it was easy to get there and win the SB then there would not be much point to it would there.
Please I would rather see the team competitive even if they fall short of the SB than to be a fan stuck with the Browns or Raiders over the last 10 years.
 
Defsoul said:
Tommy Kelly tore his ACL in week 5. That gives him 8 to 9 months to rehab until the start of training camp, right?
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AFAIK, Kelly's injury was just listed as "knee". I haven't seen any reports that it was specifically an ACL tear, but I'm skeptical that it was anything that severe since the Pats kept him on the active roster for another 4 weeks before sending him to IR.

BTW, the 2013 DT Carousel Timeline went like this:

Week-2 - CHRIS JONES claimed off waivers from TBY (who had claimed him off waivers from HOU during final cuts the week before)
......
Week-4 (@ATL) 9/29 - WILFORK, Achilles - Surgery on 10/1, sent to IR 10/3.
Week-5 (@CIN) 10/6 - KELLY, "knee injury"
------ 10/9 - DT ANDRE NEBLETT signed
------ 10/12 - FORSTON called up from PS; Neblett cut
Week-6 (NOL) 10/13 - MAYO, torn pec - Surgery and sent to IR 10/16.

Weeks 6-9 - JONES & VELLANO START

Week-8 10/23 (before home game vs. MIA) - SILIGA signed to PS
Week-9 10/29 (before home game vs. PIT) - SOPOAGA acq. from PHL, plays vs. PIT
------ 11/2 (day before PIT game) - KELLY sent to IR
Week-11 (@CAR) - Sopoaga starts
Week-12 (DEN) - Sopoaga starts
Week-13 11/26 (before game @HOU) - SILIGA called up from PS and plays in game; Forston waived back to the PS
Weeks 14 & 15 - SILIGA STARTS, Sopaga active
Weeks 16 & 17 - SILIGA STARTS, Sopaga is healthy scratch

My guess is that the initial diagnosis for Kelly (in Week-6) was that he might avoid surgery and be able to come back for the last couple games and the playoffs, so the Pats kept him on the 53. However, by Week-8, he wasn't making much progress and the run-D was sucking with only Jones and Vellano (and without Mayo), so they started making roster moves to try to cover - and the acquisition of Sopoaga essentially bumped Kelly to IR in Week-9.

After Week-12 (DEN), though, it became clear that Sopaga wasn't what they'd hoped. Meanwhile, Siliga had made significant progress on the PS under BB's personal tutelage, so they gave him a shot (over Forston). By the end of Week-15, it was clear that their best three DTs by far were Siliga, Jones and Vellano, so Sopoaga sat the rest of the way.
 
Top 5 Rookie DTs, regular season:

Richardson: 78 TT, 3.5 sacks -- 16 games/15 starts
Jones: 54 TT, 6.0 sacks -- 13 games/11 starts
Vellano: 54 TT, 2.0 sacks -- 16 games/8 starts
Lotulelei: 42 TT, 3.0 sacks -- 16 games/16 starts
Short: 30 TT, 1.5 sacks -- 16 games/0 starts


Top 5 Rookie DTs, post-season:

Jones: 7 TT, 1 sack
Lotulelei: 6 TT, 0 sacks
Vellano: 5 TT, 1 sack
Jenkins: 5 TT, 1 sack
Short: 5 TT, 0 sacks


Top 7 DTs (all), post season:

Dorsey: 9 TT, 0 sacks
Siliga: 8 TT, 0 sacks
Jones: 7 TT, 1 sack
Knighton: 7 TT, 1 sack
Bunkley: 7 TT, 0 sacks
Lotulelei: 6 TT, 0 sacks
Vellano: 5 TT, 1 sack


Pats DTs, 2013 regular season:

Jones (6015/302): 54 TT, 6.0 sacks -- 13 games/11 starts
Vellano (6013/306): 54 TT, 2.0 sacks -- 16 games/8 starts
Siliga (6016/325): 31 TT, 3.0 sacks (1 FF) -- 5 games/4 starts
Kelly (6056/325): 22 TT, 2.5 sacks -- 5 games/5 starts
Wilfork (6012/325): 9 TT, 0 sacks -- 4 games/4 starts
Forston (6012/301): 3 TT, 0 sacks -- 2 games/0 starts
Sopoaga (6022/330): 2 TT, 1 sack -- 6 games/2 starts

Hgt/Wgt are from "official" draft season weigh-ins (Shrine, Senior, Combine). Height doesn't change much with time, but those published on roster listings in feet/inches usually contain rounding errors. Weight is, of course, variable - Wilfork certainly hasn't seen 325 in quite awhile; Jones looked heftier than 302 by the end of the season.

Vellano's weight was 305-306 at both Shrine Game and Senior Bowl weigh-ins. DT Scott Vallone, who was also on the Pats' 2013 off-season roster for awhile, officially weighed 285.
 
MaineMan said:
I wasn't particularly optimistic about Wilfork making it back due to his age (he turns 33 in mid-season), weight and role on the DL, and my personal observation that he wasn't playing as well as he had in 2012 (though "slow starts" are not uncommon among older linemen on both sides of the ball). Kelly was clearly out-playing him, by my personal eyeball test, and PFF's grades, which came out after Kelly was injured, seemed to confirm all that. Anyway, my estimation of the odds for Wilfork returning took another hit after reading this article:

http://lowerextremityreview.com/article/return-to-football-after-achilles-tendon-rupture

(There are also implications here regarding TJ Moe's potential for perhaps even making the roster or PS in 2014.)

Another factor to consider, from the team's perspective, is that a Wilfork "honorable retirement" adds about $8M to cap space. If that happens (and the timing of it may be critical to off-season plans for the Pats), for me the central question wrt the immediate future of the DL becomes, "what's Siliga's upside?" He developed to a somewhat more than adequate level (in a Wilfork-type role) very quickly under BB's personal tutelage. We may or may not have seen Siliga's ceiling, in spite of his "pedigree". If the coaches think we haven't, it may make other questions regarding FAs and high-pick DTs moot.
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If VW makes it back to a competitive level of football, he will have beaten the odds for a 33 yr old 365 lb [est] male. And if he does make it back, will the repaired ligament hold up to the stresses? I have my doubts, too. Also consider that if 1 ligament pops, the other may not be far behind when subjected to the same stresses.

Here's a nice concise article that explains how they occur and why it happened to VW...eccentric contraction...the tendon was being elongated when VW put his foot far behind him to regain his balance and then he drove forward on the foot. Age (30-40)+ obesity + simultaneous lengthening and contraction (eccentric contraction) = Rupture.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sportsdoc/Achilles-tears-rupture-recovery-and-rehabilitation.html

I'm not so worried about Moe since he's younger and not obese. I'm also not so worried about Kelly's ACL surgery but I am definitely worried if Kelly has the drive to stick to an exhausting ACL rehab to make it back. Kelly will be watched closely by the Pats and any negative news will draw quick action. I don't think he'll play again.
 
CPTK said:
Brilliant response. Way to engage in intelligent dialogue based on facts.
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It was was brilliant, when compared to the glib post he replied to.

:coffee:
 
chevss454 said:
....... I'm not so worried about Moe since he's younger and not obese.
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Well, not the ideal way to begin an NFL career. While I don't have any numbers, I'd guess that the failure rate for skill position guys going sitting out their rookie year on IR with and Achilles injury might be even higher than that for guys who've already worked their way onto a roster for a year or so.


I'm also not so worried about Kelly's ACL surgery but I am definitely worried if Kelly has the drive to stick to an exhausting ACL rehab to make it back. Kelly will be watched closely by the Pats and any negative news will draw quick action. I don't think he'll play again.
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Again, this is the first I've heard that Kelly's knee injury was actually an ACL requiring surgery. If so, why did the Pats keep him on the roster for a month? Is there a source for this?
 
I read it on Rotoworld.com and they mentioned the Herald as their source. The Herald is just hinting that Kelly might have injured his ACL though:
Kelly didn't want to go into great detail about the knee problem, but mentioned he had the injury before, which was a torn ACL. Kelly underwent surgery to repair the knee and is well into his rehab.

http://bostonherald.com/sports/patr...eturning_to_pats_next_year_i_dont_feel_like_i
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NESN was reporting the same:
Kelly wouldn’t say how his knee is feeling or what his specific injury was, but he alluded to this season’s ailment being the same as the ACL tear he suffered in 2007 with the Oakland Raiders.

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2014/01/tommy-kelly...h-new-england-patriots-in-2014-thats-my-play/
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So you're right. Nothing official. We just know that it's the same knee he injured in 2007.
 
Defsoul said:
I read it on Rotoworld.com and they mentioned the Herald as their source. The Herald is just hinting that Kelly might have injured his ACL though: NESN was reporting the same:So you're right. Nothing official. We just know that it's the same knee he injured in 2007.
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The odd part about that is when I first saw him get hurt, I thought...ACL, but he came back into the game, so then I was thinking sprain, so now I don't know. If he had an ACL, they sure kept it under wraps.
 
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