Mac Jones Is Our QB1

[chevss454]

Larger issues than him? No. QB is the Pats #1 need. The offense is based off of the QB.

A #1 WR, LT, RT are after that. Add in a pass catching RB too.

And the QB's performance is dependent on a solid OL and good receivers who produce. Mac can be retaught mechanics and footwork. I don't currently see a solid OL or good
receivers who can produce. No matter who is the QB after this year, these things have to be fixed.

Here are the current top 10 teams in the league in no particular order along with their QBs and receivers.
Every top NFL team has a really good receiver room with at least 1 legit Tier 1 receiver (most have 2) or a WR1 and TE1.
Our group, even healthy, can't compare to any of these collections of receivers. Even the Ravens have a better group.

I'd like to see Mac get the same kind of quality receivers (or as close as possible) as these guys below before deciding yay or nay on Mac. He has next year to prove it in my mind.

-Eagles. Jalen Hurts has AJ Brown, Dallas Goedert, DeVonta Smith and D'Andre Swift

-Chiefs. Mahomes has Travis Kelce, Valdez-Scantling, Kadarius Toney and Mecole Hardman. Not his best group and it's showing in his worst statistical performance of his career but it's still way ahead of the Pats.

-Ravens. Lamar has Zay Flowers, OBJ, Mark Andrews, Rashad Bateman and Nelson Agholor as depth.

-Dolphins. Tua has Hill, Waddle, Claypool and Berrios

-Lions. Goff has Amon Ra St. Brown, Jahmyr Gibbs and David Montgomery

-Jaguars. Lawrence has Etienne, Calvin Ridley, Christian Kirk and Tank Bigsby

-Bills. Josh Allen has Diggs, Gabe Davis, Shakir and Dalton Kincaid

-Bengals. Burrow has Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd and Mixon

-Cowboys. Dak has Lamb, Gallup, Cooks and Pollard

-49ers. Purdy has CMcC, Deebo, Aiyuk and Kittle

Getting a competitive WR room will require BB to rethink his history of discounting WRs. It's beyond time for BB to accept the new WR payscale.
We definitely need a WR1 and we also need a WR2. Bourne can be WR3. Douglas and maybe Parker can hang around for depth but I'm fed up with Juju, Thornton, Reagor and Nixon.
There is no excuse for BB not to fix this receiver issue.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

And the QB's performance is dependent on a solid OL and good receivers who produce. Mac can be retaught mechanics and footwork. I don't currently see a solid OL or good
receivers who can produce. No matter who is the QB after this year, these things have to be fixed.

Here are the current top 10 teams in the league in no particular order along with their QBs and receivers.
Every top NFL team has a really good receiver room with at least 1 legit Tier 1 receiver (most have 2) or a WR1 and TE1.
Our group, even healthy, can't compare to any of these collections of receivers. Even the Ravens have a better group.

I'd like to see Mac get the same kind of quality receivers (or as close as possible) as these guys below before deciding yay or nay on Mac. He has next year to prove it in my mind.

-Eagles. Jalen Hurts has AJ Brown, Dallas Goedert, DeVonta Smith and D'Andre Swift

-Chiefs. Mahomes has Travis Kelce, Valdez-Scantling, Kadarius Toney and Mecole Hardman. Not his best group and it's showing in his worst statistical performance of his career but it's still way ahead of the Pats.

-Ravens. Lamar has Zay Flowers, OBJ, Mark Andrews, Rashad Bateman and Nelson Agholor as depth.

-Dolphins. Tua has Hill, Waddle, Claypool and Berrios

-Lions. Goff has Amon Ra St. Brown, Jahmyr Gibbs and David Montgomery

-Jaguars. Lawrence has Etienne, Calvin Ridley, Christian Kirk and Tank Bigsby

-Bills. Josh Allen has Diggs, Gabe Davis, Shakir and Dalton Kincaid

-Bengals. Burrow has Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd and Mixon

-Cowboys. Dak has Lamb, Gallup, Cooks and Pollard

-49ers. Purdy has CMcC, Deebo, Aiyuk and Kittle

Getting a competitive WR room will require BB to rethink his history of discounting WRs. It's beyond time for BB to accept the new WR payscale.
We definitely need a WR1 and we also need a WR2. Bourne can be WR3. Douglas and maybe Parker can hang around for depth but I'm fed up with Juju, Thornton, Reagor and Nixon.
There is no excuse for BB not to fix this receiver issue.

Yes. The offense needs major upgrades all around.

 

[aloyouis]

Yes. The offense needs major upgrades all around.

How do you rate the performance of a driver if his steering linkage is bad? What if his brakes are also bad? What if he has insufficient horsepower to safely drive the rig?

Clearly, it's the drivers fault, correct?

Throw out the driver and see if you can get another good one? Or maybe, just maybe, you give the driver the tools he needs to do his job?,

 

[HSanders]

How do you rate the performance of a driver if his steering linkage is bad? What if his brakes are also bad? What if he has insufficient horsepower to safely drive the rig?

Clearly, it's the drivers fault, correct?

Throw out the driver and see if you can get another good one? Or maybe, just maybe you give the driver the tools he needs to do his job?

true.
also true:when your airplane loses an engine,do you want a panicky pilot?

 

[aloyouis]

true.
also true:when your airplane loses an engine,do you want a panicky pilot?

How many times was the pilot subjected to jailbreak engine failure before he became nervous?

Will the pilot behave better if he/she knows the plane has been made reliable?

The truck driver scenario: Does he/she get nervous with load in the mountains and shitty breaks?

I have an idea. And admittedly, it is stolen from Chev. How about... and stay with me here... we fix the engines?

Crazy, I know.

 

[Roberto71]

When even the employees of Kraft Entertainment, i.e. Hardy, Perillo, Deuce and Fred are calling out Mac and highlighting the bad inaccurate, panicky throws he made against Washington, you know things are not right. And these aren’t the usual hysterical hacks, these are essentially Patriot employees saying this.

Time to move on.

 

[HSanders]

How many times was the pilot subjected to jailbreak engine failure before he became nervous?

Will the pilot behave better if he/she knows the plane has been made reliable?

The truck driver scenario: Does he/she get nervous with load in the mountains and shitty breaks?

I have an idea. And admittedly, it is stolen from Chev. How about... and stay with me here... we fix the engines?

Crazy, I know.

perhaps the pilot and airline would both be better off apart?

 

[aloyouis]

When even the employees of Kraft Entertainment, i.e. Hardy, Perillo, Deuce and Fred are calling out Mac and highlighting the bad inaccurate, panicky throws he made against Washington, you know things are not right. And these aren’t the usual hysterical hacks, these are essentially Patriot employees saying this.

Time to move on.

There is no way for you to ascertain what his capabilities are, as he hasn't been affording the tools. This is not arguable.

Being set up to fail is not his fault. It is on Belichick.

 

[aloyouis]

perhaps the pilot and airline would both be better off apart?

Perhaps. Especially if the airlines shitty maintenance and management caused planes to crash.

I left a company once for similar reasons.

Once.

Turned my new into the equivalent of a SB winner so maybe I am biased.

Never throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

true.
also true:when your airplane loses an engine,do you want a panicky pilot?

One who loses his shit on a big scale…hopefully!

 

[chevss454]

Here's what Lazar has to say on Mac's past, present and future in NE.

For the record, I'm not making any final proclamations until the end of this season on Mac. There's a world where Jones turns it on in the final eight games and the narrative on him shifts. If the Patriots get hot and the arrow points upward by season's end, we have to adjust our thinking. Even if that scenario feels very far-fetched at this moment, it's far from unprecedented. I'm also not going to attack Mac by screaming that he stinks from the top of the lighthouse to appease people.

With that said, if the quarterback play doesn't improve, the Patriots should be in the market for an upgrade in the offseason, likely by restarting the clock with a rookie. Jones has physical limitations with his arm talent that are apparent, which are made worse by rapidly declining footwork and pocket mechanics. Jones is routinely fading away on throws or aborting plays/dropping his eyes to the rush at the first sign of trouble. There's nothing consistent enough about his game, from his downfield accuracy, mechanics, and decision-making to play winning football — nobody is making excuses for him.

However, every quarterback is a product of their environment. We've seen toolsy and "pro-ready" quarterbacks alike fail when the infrastructure around them isn't solid to the point where the mounting evidence is that nurturing a young quarterback is just as important as their natural physical gifts. Some "unicorns" are possible exceptions to that rule, but even those players' success is often dictated by factors outside their control.

The Patriots played the hits on how to stunt the growth of a young quarterback from developing into a franchise guy: three offensive coordinators in three years, subpar skill talent around him, and iffy roster decisions to protect a stationary pocket passer, like lacking resources used on offensive tackles that have led to ongoing issues along the offensive line (32nd in pass-blocking win rate this season).

For many, some more emotionally charged than others, Jones's 8-15 record over the last two seasons has led Patriots fans to a place where they think Mac isn't it, and you can certainly make the argument that he isn't good enough to succeed regardless of the situation. After all, shouldn't he be elevating those around him instead of vice versa? You can make that case.
Still, it's unfair to place all the blame for what has gone on with his development on Jones. He didn't hire a career defensive coach to run the offense in a massive year for a young quarterback's development, and he didn't balk at taking big swings for prized receivers to add a true number-one target. The Patriots have never taken adding elite offensive talent to the roster seriously. It's been a series of half-hearted attempts and, thus, failures to add talent around the quarterback. It's crazy to compare Jones's supporting cast to an elite offense. He's throwing to other team's castoffs and draft busts while his college teammates in the Alabama quarterback room have Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Waddle, A.J. Brown, and DeVonta Smith.

The organization's goal should be to make it as easy as possible on their young quarterback, not challenge or expect him to cover things up. The football operations at 1 Patriot Place failed to build around a young quarterback. That's not debatable. Jones hasn't played well enough to deter the team from looking for an upgrade, but the team also failed to build around him — both can be and are true.


If the Patriots return to the quarterback carousel, these missteps must be corrected. The team has to create a better environment for the next guy because, whether that's Caleb Williams, Drake Maye, or any other quarterback, they, too, will be products of their environment. Going about things the same way New England did with Jones and expecting different results? We can guess how that will go for whoever is at QB in Foxborough.

Patriots Mailbag: Where Do the Pats Stand at Quarterback Nine Games Into the Season?

Answering questions about Mac Jones, the Patriots approach at the trade deadline, and how New England moves forward after a 2-7 start.

www.patriots.com

 

[Mazz22]

Here's what Lazar has to say on Mac's past, present and future in NE.

For the record, I'm not making any final proclamations until the end of this season on Mac. There's a world where Jones turns it on in the final eight games and the narrative on him shifts. If the Patriots get hot and the arrow points upward by season's end, we have to adjust our thinking. Even if that scenario feels very far-fetched at this moment, it's far from unprecedented. I'm also not going to attack Mac by screaming that he stinks from the top of the lighthouse to appease people.

With that said, if the quarterback play doesn't improve, the Patriots should be in the market for an upgrade in the offseason, likely by restarting the clock with a rookie. Jones has physical limitations with his arm talent that are apparent, which are made worse by rapidly declining footwork and pocket mechanics. Jones is routinely fading away on throws or aborting plays/dropping his eyes to the rush at the first sign of trouble. There's nothing consistent enough about his game, from his downfield accuracy, mechanics, and decision-making to play winning football — nobody is making excuses for him.

However, every quarterback is a product of their environment. We've seen toolsy and "pro-ready" quarterbacks alike fail when the infrastructure around them isn't solid to the point where the mounting evidence is that nurturing a young quarterback is just as important as their natural physical gifts. Some "unicorns" are possible exceptions to that rule, but even those players' success is often dictated by factors outside their control.

The Patriots played the hits on how to stunt the growth of a young quarterback from developing into a franchise guy: three offensive coordinators in three years, subpar skill talent around him, and iffy roster decisions to protect a stationary pocket passer, like lacking resources used on offensive tackles that have led to ongoing issues along the offensive line (32nd in pass-blocking win rate this season).

For many, some more emotionally charged than others, Jones's 8-15 record over the last two seasons has led Patriots fans to a place where they think Mac isn't it, and you can certainly make the argument that he isn't good enough to succeed regardless of the situation. After all, shouldn't he be elevating those around him instead of vice versa? You can make that case.
Still, it's unfair to place all the blame for what has gone on with his development on Jones. He didn't hire a career defensive coach to run the offense in a massive year for a young quarterback's development, and he didn't balk at taking big swings for prized receivers to add a true number-one target. The Patriots have never taken adding elite offensive talent to the roster seriously. It's been a series of half-hearted attempts and, thus, failures to add talent around the quarterback. It's crazy to compare Jones's supporting cast to an elite offense. He's throwing to other team's castoffs and draft busts while his college teammates in the Alabama quarterback room have Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Waddle, A.J. Brown, and DeVonta Smith.

The organization's goal should be to make it as easy as possible on their young quarterback, not challenge or expect him to cover things up. The football operations at 1 Patriot Place failed to build around a young quarterback. That's not debatable. Jones hasn't played well enough to deter the team from looking for an upgrade, but the team also failed to build around him — both can be and are true.


If the Patriots return to the quarterback carousel, these missteps must be corrected. The team has to create a better environment for the next guy because, whether that's Caleb Williams, Drake Maye, or any other quarterback, they, too, will be products of their environment. Going about things the same way New England did with Jones and expecting different results? We can guess how that will go for whoever is at QB in Foxborough.

Patriots Mailbag: Where Do the Pats Stand at Quarterback Nine Games Into the Season?

Answering questions about Mac Jones, the Patriots approach at the trade deadline, and how New England moves forward after a 2-7 start.

www.patriots.com

Pretty spot on. I think this time around, we need to get a QB that has athletic ability as well as pocket/passing ability. The game has really changed at the QB position and the next guy has to be able to buy time with his feet and make plays with his legs when the play calls for it.

I am not that big on Williams. I don't like his attitude at all. I know he is a pretty good talent though. Would be interested to see what QBs folks here would want the Pats to go after either this season or next season ....

 

[chevss454]

More from Lazar

Q: Can you envision a future where we keep Bill and Mac next season? What pieces would have to be put around them to make it work? - Harry M

Absolutely. The easiest path for the Patriots is using their projected cap space and a high draft pick to keep adding talent to the roster, especially on offense, and hope that it elevates the quarterback. Obviously, that would mean real investment in offense, specifically a top wide receiver and another playmaker to supplement the new number-one guy, and a starting offensive tackle. I'd also bring in a true pass-catching back to play on third down. If it doesn't work, the Pats could move on from Mac after his fourth season. I'm not saying it's the best path, but it is a path we should prepare for as Patriots fans/pundits. The biggest question in this scenario is, will Belichick make the necessary philosophical changes to upgrade the offense? He hasn't shown the desire to acquire high-end offensive talent.

Q: Based on your observations, how much of their current situation is injuries vs. scheme vs. personnel issues? - Matt C

Let's divvy up the blame pie, shall we? I'd say the biggest slice goes to personnel. Let's call it 55%. As outlined in the open, the Patriots unwillingness to invest considerable resources into upgrading the offense is worrisome. Although you can't completely ignore defense, your high-end assets must go toward offense (draft picks/cap space), especially when you've been as bad offensively as this team recently. The other personnel concern is that there never seem to be succession plans anymore, which goes back to Brady leaving. Brady, Gronk, McCourty, White; who was supposed to be next in line? They used to be a year or two ahead of these things. This team is also constantly replacing instead of adding talent. It's Meyers out, JuJu in. Jonnu out, Gesicki in. Why not build around some program fits? You have to have some pillars. Also, it pains me that they haven't had a right tackle in years and never brought in a real third-down back. That's inexcusable. Other than that, the personnel side is doing great!

Then, I'd give 35% of the blame to coaching. I think their schemes on both sides of the ball are sound. O'Brien is modernizing the offense, albeit without the personnel to implement the new-age stuff well, and the defense has a sound system. But their personnel usage is head-scratching (Mapu at deep safety, WR usage, rookies, etc.), and their fundamentals are as sloppy as ever under Belichick. They used to amplify players' strengths by finding the right spots to play them. Now, it seems like they're lost in how to use certain personnel.

That leaves the final 10% to injuries. I'm not big on blaming injuries, but losing Matthw Judon, Christian Gonzalez, and Marcus Jones caught up to a team that lacks depth/top-end talent. Judon and Gonzalez are their best players, and Jones was a game-breaker on a team that doesn't have explosive playmakers. It would've been fun to see Pop Douglas and Marcus Jones on the field together for a few offensive plays. Maybe next year.

Q: You become Patriots GM today. What is your plan from here? Who is your head coach next season? - Stephen F

Although it's beating a dead horse at this point, my regime as the Patriots general manager would philosophically change the organization's direction toward offense. Every prized asset move until further notice would be put into the offense, cap space, top 100 draft picks, etc. Until this team can out-score opponents, they're porked. So I'd be all-in on a proven veteran receiver (Tee Higgins), another receiver in the draft, an offensive tackle, and then decide on the quarterback. My preference would be to pair my offense-first team-building approach with an offensive-minded coach, like Ben Johnson (Detroit OC), mainly because I don't want to recycle offensive coordinators every other year. However, Jerod Mayo is a strong candidate as well. Mayo would keep the Pats defensive system in place, while he seems to be a forward thinker who would agree that this team needs to focus on lighting up the scoreboard.
---------------------------------
For the record, I've already posted that Tee Higgins would be my prime numero uno target in FA this off season. The Bengals can't afford to re-sign him. He's a true WR1.

 

[Roberto71]

It's a fair enough assessment from Lazar. I don't think even those with the most strong feelings against Mac would say he is solely to blame. It's very possible that Mac is both a poor NFL caliber QB AND that the team, Offensive coaching and players failed him. They are not mutually exclusive positions.

To me, Mac is a 'Goldlocks' QB. that is, he will require everything to be just right in order for him to succeed. he will need a stellar O Line, great RBs, great receivers and TEs and great offensive coaching and playcalling. He doesn't have the talent to work around those things.

And I don't think the Patriots under Bill will ever give that to him, Bill will just not focus on getting an all star offense around the QB, it's not how he builds his teams. So Mac is probably better off somewhere else. Like under a McVay or a Shanahan. It's possible he could get some success in teams like that. But everything would have to be just right.

Bill got away with a lot with Brady, no question. I think a running QB, a guy like a Hurts or a Jackson is the kind of QB he would prefer to help make up shortcomings in the offensive weapons in his teams.

 

[ViperGTS]

Won't change his arm strength or decision making etc etc. The only way you win with Mac is to have a one or two year window where you make an Alabama offense. I mean, you trade/pay do whatever to get 3-4 All Pro Linemen, at least 1 or 2 All Pro Backs, 2+ elite All pro Receivers.

Never going to happen and thus he needs to go. It is hard to see where Mac can be a playoff winning QB due to the salary cap.

 

[dchester]

And that is the very essence of the disagreement on Mac. Some of us see what he's capable of, and want to give him what he needs (and does not have) and others want to throw everything down the drain and try to come up with an entirely new team.

Some of us have seen enough of his inconsistencies, and are ready to find someone better. The problem with that, is that drafting QBs is far from an exact science. Bill Parcells once said something like, if you can find someone who can accurately assess college QBs, you should pay him whatever he wants.

 

[dchester]

100%. The frustrating part for me (and I’m sure for others obviously) is the abject refusal to “see” what is so very obvious to others.

The easy path is to simply say Mac sucks. But quite honestly, as Chev has easily and clearly shown, Mac isn’t perfect, but he’s more than capable. The real problems are elsewhere, and some folks just can’t get past the Mac hate. It’s weird, because some of these folks actually are knowledgeable, but they are too far gone. They can’t see it.

Properly equipped, Mac Jones is a playoff winning quarterback right now. These players are few and far between in the NFL. To throw him away as some here demand is very shortsighted. Fix the offensive line and get him even just an average receiver room. If you step back and look at the last three seasons, with wide open eyes, the blame lies firmly at the feet of Bill Belichick for not already getting this done.

I don’t know, @chevss454 , am I nuts?

Well I agree that the blame does ultimately fall on BB. However where we disagree, is on Mac. At times he makes some good throws, but too often he makes bad plays. Lots of people blame the o-line for Mac's issues, but I think the o-line has played better than Mac, the past 2 years. I do think injuries have been a bigger problem this year, than what is typical. An upgrade at WR is needed, and that's been one of BB's failings for a long time. It's not that BB hasn't tried to get better at WR, but more, what he's tried to do, simply hasn't been very successful.

Of course, BB picked Mac, and to whatever extent Mac is screwing up, that's on BB for not finding a better QB. As for Mac, he needs to absorb the coaching a lot better than he has, or he'll end up being just another 1st round bust.

 

[dchester]

It's a fair enough assessment from Lazar. I don't think even those with the most strong feelings against Mac would say he is solely to blame. It's very possible that Mac is both a poor NFL caliber QB AND that the team, Offensive coaching and players failed him. They are not mutually exclusive positions.

To me, Mac is a 'Goldlocks' QB. that is, he will require everything to be just right in order for him to succeed. he will need a stellar O Line, great RBs, great receivers and TEs and great offensive coaching and playcalling. He doesn't have the talent to work around those things.

And I don't think the Patriots under Bill will ever give that to him, Bill will just not focus on getting an all star offense around the QB, it's not how he builds his teams. So Mac is probably better off somewhere else. Like under a McVay or a Shanahan. It's possible he could get some success in teams like that. But everything would have to be just right.

Bill got away with a lot with Brady, no question. I think a running QB, a guy like a Hurts or a Jackson is the kind of QB he would prefer to help make up shortcomings in the offensive weapons in his teams.

For me, is Mac solely to blame for the offense's problems? No. However, I do think Mac is the biggest problem that needs to be fixed / replaced. Next for me would be an upgrade at receiver. Upgrading the o-line (and especially the depth) would be third.

 

[dchester]

Won't change his arm strength or decision making etc etc. The only way you win with Mac is to have a one or two year window where you make an Alabama offense. I mean, you trade/pay do whatever to get 3-4 All Pro Linemen, at least 1 or 2 All Pro Backs, 2+ elite All pro Receivers.

Never going to happen and thus he needs to go. It is hard to see where Mac can be a playoff winning QB due to the salary cap.

I'll disagree a little on the arm strength point. Brady did not have a strong arm early on, but he was able to improve on it quite a bit, by working hard in the off-season. Whether Mac will do that, is to be determined, (but at this point, I'm not optimistic that he'll do what it takes). It is possible though, is my (maybe weak) point.

Of course, Brady's decision making and poise under pressure, in his first year of starting, was far superior to anything we've seen with Mac, thus far, (and that made up for Brady's candy arm, back in 2001 - 2002).

 

[chevss454]

Won't change his arm strength or decision making etc etc. The only way you win with Mac is to have a one or two year window where you make an Alabama offense. I mean, you trade/pay do whatever to get 3-4 All Pro Linemen, at least 1 or 2 All Pro Backs, 2+ elite All pro Receivers.

Never going to happen and thus he needs to go. It is hard to see where Mac can be a playoff winning QB due to the salary cap.

That's maybe a huge exaggeration.