Dennis and Callahan are idiots!!!

[Dwight Schrute]

You know, Belichick may have become a victim of his own success. As my wise father says, "#$^& me once, shame on you; @#$^ me twice, shame on me". Perhaps the other GMs/coaches/owners have grown leery of anything coming from Belichick's direction. Every coach who's left the tree has failed; every player who's left the team for a big-bucks contract has underproduced. The mere fact that two weeks went by with nary a nibble for Cassel tells you that there was more to the other teams' worry than simply, "Is Cassel worth it?" I think they're afraid of getting Belichicked.

We don't know this either. For all we know, multiple teams may have been calling and only offering a 2nd rounder.

But I agree with your basic premise. I mean, how many more times are teams going to be willing to deal with BB after Randy Moss trade, Corey Dillon trade, Wes Welker trade. Sooner or later teams are gonna start to believe every deal made with this guy is destined to failure.

 

[JD10367]

We don't know this either. For all we know, multiple teams may have been calling and only offering a 2nd rounder.

But I agree with your basic premise. I mean, how many more times are teams going to be willing to deal with BB after Randy Moss trade, Corey Dillon trade, Wes Welker trade. Sooner or later teams are gonna start to believe every deal made with this guy is destined to failure.

Exactly. Aside from Vinatieri (and he's a friggin' kicker, so it doesn't count), everyone who's left has floundered, while the Pats have gotten rich off the picks and free agents. I think a lot of them are under the impression (maybe rightfully so) that, when it comes to the Patriots, the links by themselves aren't much but they make for a strong chain. Hell, even now there are still those holdouts living in their caves who claim Brady is a "system QB" who wouldn't be as successful somewhere else. :shrug:

 

[Wandering Athol]

Couple of thoughts:
1) Does anyone think the final terms of the Cassel trade with the Chiefs may be conditional on him signing a long-term deal? Meaning: there might be more juice in it for the Pats at a later date. Just seems to me like that would make sense.
2) There seems to be an understanding that while it's logical that the Pats should take a haircut to deal Cassel because he has no long-term deal in place, the same doesn't hold true for the Broncos dealing a QB who just quit on his team and has an agent who is notorious for this kind of behavior in order to force teams into negotiating new deals. What am I missing here?

 

[Steve1]

If no team is offering more for cassel how can you get more? You think the pats should have hung on to the 14 mil cap hit and not signed those corners hoping that someone would up the offer for cassel? They got what was offered, you act as though teams were throwing first rounders threw bills window and he said no.

I think Belichick wants to improve the Pats, and he didn't see any use in waiting for better possible deals. Right-because he would have already been contacted by other teams, if they were knocking the door down for Cassel (who I thought had a wonderful season).

I was just making a general statement that alot of Pats fans (and I've been guilty of this) think the man can do no wrong. He's obviously one of, if not currently, the best at what he does. But he's human, and can make mistakes. He puts his pants on like everybody else, one leg at a time.

Actually, and it's okay, you inferred that "I acted as though teams were throwing first rounders through bill's window, and he said no". Please allow me to set That record straight

 

[JD10367]

Couple of thoughts:
1) Does anyone think the final terms of the Cassel trade with the Chiefs may be conditional on him signing a long-term deal? Meaning: there might be more juice in it for the Pats at a later date. Just seems to me like that would make sense.

I'm not sure that could be done.

2) There seems to be an understanding that while it makes sense that the Pats should take a haircut to deal Cassel because he has no long-term deal in place, the same doesn't hold true for the Broncos dealing a QB who just quit on his team and has an agent who is notorious for this kind of behavior in order to force teams into negotiating new deals. What am I missing here?

You're missing the fact that the Bears aren't too smart. "Yeah, we gave up two 1sts, a 3rd, and a decent QB, but we got Jay Freakin' Cutler, woo hoo, and he's gonna come cheap for a few seasons 'cause he's under contract!" They apparently didn't give much thought to the fact that he might hold out for a renegotiation. And I'm sure McDaniels is just hoping and praying, "Please, God, just make Cutler shut the $@#^ up until the Bears sign on the dotted line, then he's THEIR headache..."

 

[Steve1]

What "chorus of rationalization" do you think is going on? You do understand that teams had nearly two weeks from the time Cassel signed his tender to to opening of F.A., to work out a trade with the Pats right? So what your saying is that either these teams that you think where so eager to give up multiple 1st round picks for Cassel, just didn't bother to call the Pats??? Or you think they did call the Pats and B.B. just told them he didn't want multiple 1st round picks he wanted a 2nd??? Is that what your saying? Or Maybe, just maybe, the reality is that no one stepped to the plate for Cassel and the Patriots took what they felt was the best offer on the table in order to move on with their off-season plans.

I can't really disagree with that. And I don't really care That much about what the Pats got for Vrabel and Cassel. It's just that, like maybe 90% of vocal knowledgable pats fans, I had this expectation (hope?) that they'd get more than a second rounder for Cassel. And then they ended up with the second rounder (a good one, pick #34), for Cassel And Vrabel. But I guess I rationalized it (don't lie about this; many if not most of us pats fans have thought this!:heart by thinking one of many possibilities. My basic rationalization is: "as a Pats fan, I sometimes over-state the importance of one of the Patriots players, as far as what other teams would give up for that player; I guess therefore, Cassel and Vrabel together aren't worth the, say, 1st-rounder and a player, that I thought they were worth".

But hey, give me some Tony Gonzolez, and that I would like!

 

[midgar8784]

I can't really disagree with that. And I don't really care That much about what the Pats got for Vrabel and Cassel. It's just that, like maybe 90% of vocal knowledgable pats fans, I had this expectation (hope?) that they'd get more than a second rounder for Cassel. And then they ended up with the second rounder (a good one, pick #34), for Cassel And Vrabel. But I guess I rationalized it (don't lie about this; many if not most of us pats fans have thought this!:heart by thinking one of many possibilities. My basic rationalization is: "as a Pats fan, I sometimes over-state the importance of one of the Patriots players, as far as what other teams would give up for that player; I guess therefore, Cassel and Vrabel together aren't worth the, say, 1st-rounder and a player, that I thought they were worth".

But hey, give me some Tony Gonzolez, and that I would like!

Well actually a couple of us said dont be surprised if the pats get less than a 1st for cassel, we were then ripped up and down and called stupid. Its not about worth, its about what the market will bare. If you have an item and the highest bidder will give you 50 bucks, then thats what you are getting or you get nothing, in this case there was a lot of money tied up and the pats didnt have time to play hard ball for 6 months hoping someone desperate threw a first rounder for him.

 

[Steve1]

Has he ever done ANYTHING that wasn't in the best interest of the team?

pregnant pause...........

Okay, I'll bite:
1. Should have kept Vinatieri (if Adam wanted to stay, that is...he may have wanted out, for whatever reason). Ghost is a fine kicker though.

2. Should have antied up for Assante Samuel a few years ago (if Assante wanted to work that out; Samuel seemed to want his huge payday anyway)

3. Should have figured out a way to keep Branch and/or Givens. The Pats receiving crew was fairly attrocious in '06. (of course, Branch was being a little bitch, and Givens....who knows?)

4. Apparently cheated and got caught in that 2007 Jets game. It cost the Pats a first-rounder. (of course, if he was in fact cheating, it was apparently done to help win games, which is in the best interest of the team:rockon

Numbers 5 through 1,000 are in things done to improve the team!

But was that a serious question....has he ever done Anything that wasn't in the best interest of the team? Again, I must resort to "he's human, therefore he has made mistakes". But I sure think he wants to win!

And the coolaid still tastes good, and I'm ready for another fine and intriguing season....

nothing to get too hyped up about, believe me (that never works, telling people to calm down.....ha)

 

[shasta]

I can't really disagree with that. And I don't really care That much about what the Pats got for Vrabel and Cassel. It's just that, like maybe 90% of vocal knowledgable pats fans, I had this expectation (hope?) that they'd get more than a second rounder for Cassel. And then they ended up with the second rounder (a good one, pick #34), for Cassel And Vrabel. But I guess I rationalized it (don't lie about this; many if not most of us pats fans have thought this!:heart by thinking one of many possibilities. My basic rationalization is: "as a Pats fan, I sometimes over-state the importance of one of the Patriots players, as far as what other teams would give up for that player; I guess therefore, Cassel and Vrabel together aren't worth the, say, 1st-rounder and a player, that I thought they were worth".

But hey, give me some Tony Gonzolez, and that I would like!

Hope is one thing, I hoped they would get more as well, but that's very differen't than saying B.B. turned down better offers or messed this deal up. Fact is the morning morons D & C made it sound like teams where jumping over eachother trying to give the Patriots a Cutler type deal and the Pats didn't want it. Then they went on to make it sound as if B.B. should have waited a couple of days longer, like they have better insight into who's interested than Belichick does. The bottom line is that in the two weeks teams had to talk to the Patriots only the Chiefs did, then the Broncos jumped in late with a very weak offer.

 

[Steve1]

Well actually a couple of us said dont be surprised if the pats get less than a 1st for cassel, we were then ripped up and down and called stupid. Its not about worth, its about what the market will bare. If you have an item and the highest bidder will give you 50 bucks, then thats what you are getting or you get nothing, in this case there was a lot of money tied up and the pats didnt have time to play hard ball for 6 months hoping someone desperate threw a first rounder for him.

Yes there were people who said that, and those people (were you included?) made a good point, and came out smellng like roses. I'm pretty sure I originally thought they'd end up with a first rounder, somehow.....

And it is fruitful that the Pats were able to sign a couple of fairly decent cornerbacks, and a pretty good runningback. Things worked out pretty well. Plus they still have that 2nd rounder they received in the trade. And a slew of other draft choices. Nice....

 

[Steve1]

Hope is one thing, I hoped they would get more as well, but that's very differen't than saying B.B. turned down better offers or messed this deal up. Fact is the morning morons D & C made it sound like teams where jumping over eachother trying to give the Patriots a Cutler type deal and the Pats didn't want it. Then they went on to make it sound as if B.B. should have waited a couple of days longer, like they have better insight into who's interested than Belichick does. The bottom line is that in the two weeks teams had to talk to the Patriots only the Chiefs did, then the Broncos jumped in late with a very weak offer.

This is true. And for once, I actually had d and c on the radio this morning. I never usually listen to them, and I did while they were talking about the trade. Just a coincidence that I heard that stuff. And they were very aggrevating, as they do try to be. They succeeded yet again, unfortunately.

Of course, the reason they were talking about it, was because of the two 1st rounders the Broncos got for cutler. So belichick's trade was ripe for them to make fun of. That's what they do; exaggerate things so you or I will listen a little longer. And it worked for me today! I listened to them for about 3 whole minutes, instead of the usual 3 seconds (no exaggeration). Actually, I usually don't listen to them for even 3 seconds. They did it! They sucked me in for 3 minutes! Or was it 2 minutes of low-level heartache? Too long....

BTW, the Bears are just dying to get a real nfl qb. They've been waiting for eons, and they reached their breaking point. Apparently, they think Jay Cutler, who I think pretty much sucks in general, is the answer for them.

 

[O.Z.O.]

3. Should have figured out a way to keep Branch and/or Givens. The Pats receiving crew was fairly attrocious in '06. (of course, Branch was being a little bitch, and Givens....who knows?)

and yet, if they hadn't been forced to suit up the equivilent of ball boys in the second of that AFCCG, they would have gone to the Super Bowl that year.

 

[CleatMarks]

Well actually a couple of us said dont be surprised if the pats get less than a 1st for cassel, we were then ripped up and down and called stupid. Its not about worth, its about what the market will bare. If you have an item and the highest bidder will give you 50 bucks, then thats what you are getting or you get nothing, in this case there was a lot of money tied up and the pats didnt have time to play hard ball for 6 months hoping someone desperate threw a first rounder for him.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1085150&postcount=7

 

[midgar8784]

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1085150&postcount=7

I would show you mine, but most of it is followed up by being called an idiot. Actually I didnt say, for a damn fact no way the pats get a first rounder, I read a story and took some opinons away thinking that they might not or that the market would not be willing to give a first for him with the way it was and what teams were interested, it had nothing to do with cassel, what I think his value is, or anything else, which is how it was thrown back at me.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

pregnant pause...........

Okay, I'll bite:
1. Should have kept Vinatieri (if Adam wanted to stay, that is...he may have wanted out, for whatever reason). Ghost is a fine kicker though.


Not even close. Ghost has proven to be a far superior kicker. His kickoffs are second only to Janikowski's(sp).


2. Should have antied up for Assante Samuel a few years ago (if Assante wanted to work that out; Samuel seemed to want his huge payday anyway)


Agree, if it was a couple of years ago and Assante was willing. He's nowhere near worth the coin he's pulling in now.


3. Should have figured out a way to keep Branch and/or Givens. The Pats receiving crew was fairly attrocious in '06. (of course, Branch was being a little bitch, and Givens....who knows?)


Givens, yes. Branch basically shot his way out of town. He was still under his rookie contract. Bad precedent to set there if you let player X raise a shitstorm in order to get a new deal. Though if he were here or it played out sooner and we ended up with better talent to replace him we would have been in the SB.


4. Apparently cheated and got caught in that 2007 Jets game. It cost the Pats a first-rounder. (of course, if he was in fact cheating, it was apparently done to help win games, which is in the best interest of the team:rockon


Totally assinine punishment by Goodell, trying to make a name for himself. In light of what other teams have said they've done he(Goodell) looks foolish.


Numbers 5 through 1,000 are in things done to improve the team!

But was that a serious question....has he ever done Anything that wasn't in the best interest of the team? Again, I must resort to "he's human, therefore he has made mistakes". But I sure think he wants to win!

And the coolaid still tastes good, and I'm ready for another fine and intriguing season....

nothing to get too hyped up about, believe me (that never works, telling people to calm down.....ha)

I'm not saying he hasn't made any mistakes, but to speculate he didn't do what was right at the time for the team w/o ALL the information is foolish on anyone's part. He knows every single little detail, and re-hashed every scenario a dozen times I'm sure. He only cares about winning and will do whatever he can to make the Pats better. I really can't understand the second guessing of that.

 

[Steve1]

Revisionist history. At the time, Vinatieri was still the best clutch, all-around kicker in the game.

Is belichick paying you to treat him like a god? (my words, not yours...you did not call him a god).

Blind faith is stupid. So is eating too much, and I think I want some fish and chips........

 

[midgar8784]

Revisionist history. At the time, Vinatieri was still the best clutch, all-around kicker in the game.

Is belichick paying you to treat him like a god? (my words, not yours...you did not call him a god).

Blind faith is stupid. So is eating too much, and I think I want some fish and chips........

We didnt lose one single game because Vinatieri was traded. Not one. Is branch worth 7 mil a year? Obvioulsy not, brady took two throw away receivers to the afc title game that year and lose mainly to the 32 points the pats gave up in the second half, so I did not have a problem with what they did. Samual was too much money period. This team keeps a core set of players and builds around them, samual was not one of thsoe core set of players.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Revisionist history. At the time, Vinatieri was still the best clutch, all-around kicker in the game.

Is belichick paying you to treat him like a god? (my words, not yours...you did not call him a god).

Blind faith is stupid. So is eating too much, and I think I want some fish and chips........

I don't have "blind faith".

I said I'm sure he's made mistakes. You've just failed to list one


Make sure you order haddock.

 

[Steve1]

I don't have "blind faith".

I said I'm sure he's made mistakes. You've just failed to list one


Make sure you order haddock.

nah nah nah no I did list a few.....you just don't agree with them. Thank you for the suggestion for haddock!

 

[Steve1]

We didnt lose one single game because Vinatieri was traded. Not one. Is branch worth 7 mil a year? Obvioulsy not, brady took two throw away receivers to the afc title game that year and lose mainly to the 32 points the pats gave up in the second half, so I did not have a problem with what they did. Samual was too much money period. This team keeps a core set of players and builds around them, samual was not one of thsoe core set of players.

As it turns out (looking back with 20-20 vision), the only game they may have lost because Vinatieri was not re-signed, was arguably sb 43 against the Giants (what with his kickoff out of bounds, after a pats td, killing any momentum the pats had at that point). Have at it with that one.....

Right, the Pats did give up those 32 colt points in the second half of the afc game in 2006. Good point.

As far as samuel, he was a star pats cornerback. But they just couldn't sign him I guess. I wish they had him; yet I'm pissed because he was a player that blew that giants sb. Then again, maybe he played well in that sb, and kept the giants from moving downfield more often

Hell, I'm having enough trouble arguing with myself, let alone you or anyone else!

As we all agree....Go Patriots!!!

(and ghost usually makes the best kickoffs I have ever seen.;.... nobody's perfect.)