OT: Solicitation of advice

Re: Great job, tex....

wyobilzfan said:
seriously. You were honest, kind, and supportive. Nothing you could have done better than the honorable thing.

Now you have to wait and see what happens, and holy cats, how tough that must be. Obviously the comment that "she always gets everything" is the tip of the iceberg I was trying to talk about last night.

There is old SH*T between them that has NOTHING to do with you. The "gift" in all of this is that no matter what happens, HOPEFULLY the two sisters will use it to lay ALL of their cra_p out on the table and deal with whatever needs dealing.

The end result is as you say, risky for you. But high risk, high reward. It could prove to be what makes or breaks your relationship with both of these women. You did the only thing you could do that was the RIGHT thing to do.

I hope the bottom line is that these two sisters decide how to let this be what HELPS them get over their past "stuff", or it will just be more fuel to a bigger flaming somewhere down the road. That's the thing that's so convoluted about sibling relationshiips. You can be so close, and so HURTFUL to one another.

Just my point of view, but I still feel the most compassion for your g/f in this situation. Sounds like she's been there before with SisterDearest, at least metaphorically. Part of me hopes that g/f fights for her relationship with you. Just my one cent opinion, but I'm still thinking that SexySister ALLOWED herself to get into a situation that is causing an unbelievable amount of pain for her sibling, and for you. Again. Just a tad bit selfish of her if you ask me.

And this is a repeated pattern. Enough to make this old therapist go hmmmmm...

Hats off to you for being a man of integrity.
Thanks for the nice comments...all of you.

As for the "tip of the iceberg" thing, that's true. They're as close as can be, but Sister has a way of always coming up roses in any situation. You know anyone like that? I can see how being a sibling to a person like that would be frustrating.

But as far as I know (and I know a lot) the boyfriend stealing is brand new.

Can turn this around on you, WYO? You seem to have something against Sister from the getgo. It seems that you had something in your mind from your first read through, and read everything through that lens now.

I agree that I'm far from objective, but from where I sit, she was desperate, and trying to ensure that she didn't miss her chance at me (that sounds arrogant. It isn't meant to be, but you get the point) and have regrets for her whole life. There's no regret like the chance you don't take, and all that jazz, right? That's what I'm seeing here - both for me and for her.

Yeah, it's pretty high-risk. I haven't been able to settle down.

BTW - during the conversation, I had mentioned that I'd come here for advice, BECAUSE it could be anonymous. I just got an email from G/F that just says "Bang 'em both! Threesome!" and a laughy emoticon. Then a sad emoticon. And that's it.

She must be a friggin wreck. Sister's working today, so they're not going to be able to talk for awhile.
 
Bravo OT,

I'm very glad that you told the GF everything. She needed to know what was going on. As I expected, you handled yourself so well, that all options are likely still available (even the threesome!!!). The sisters will need to workout their issues.

You've been honorable to all concerned. I'm very impressed.
:toast:
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mac game
 
Oed....

Thanks for your thoughtful response and follow up information. It sounds like your g/f is probably a wreck, but at least she is a functional wreck.

As far as (paraphrasing) having it in for SisterSexy from the get-go... I'd have to say perhaps so. But I'm open to seeing how she handles herself with g/f before writing her off as acting without serious regard for her sister.

Perhaps this will help explain my position. I have found myself in numerous situations like SisterSexy over the years with other women, friends, family members over similar circumstances.

When I was single, my single friends wouldn't invite me out with them. My married friends wouldn't invite me out with them. Not meaning to appear arrogant or vain, but men found/find me attractive (yes, even at my advanced age of pushing 50) and it caused(s) LOTS of problems for me with other women.

OK. Bottom line is that when one is faced with living like that, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about conducting yourself, at least if you'd like to have a relatively happy relationship with other women. The RIGHT way is steer clear of other people's boyfriends, husbands, etc. PERIOD. END OF STATEMENT.

Did I read correctly in this voluminous thread that you don't believe that there is necessarily only ONE right person for somebody? If you did indeed 'say' that, then the RIGHT thing for SisterSexy to do would be to set aside her attraction and be CAREFUL not to "lead you on", or give you "signals" that she obviously gave you.

This should have NEVER have gotten to first base. SHE is responsible for letting it get that far IMO. In situations similar to this one, if I were in SexySister's place I would go to the g/f FIRST and tell her what was going on inside of ME, NOT to you to confirm whether or not "I'm" reading the signals correctly. I don't buy that. Any adult woman who is that attractive knows the signals by now, Oed.

The thing that kind of pulls at my heart strings here is that I worry that g/f may not (at least at the moment) have the self confidence/emotional energy to put up a fight for you. That "sad" emoticon she put after the "threesome" comment says enough. And I'm curious about the comments she made last night about SisterSexy being PERFECT for you. Sounds like g/f has felt like the 'ugly' sister before.

If this were a novel I was reading, I'd be pulling for g/f to fight for you and win your heart in the end. Then she could finally feel on an even keel with SisterSexy, who will have plenty of opportunities down the road.

LOL, in reality whatever happens... you have provided a chance for something really good to happen. I just hope they make the best of it, and as previously mentioned, that someday all three of you can laugh about it.


Oh, and by the way, I have a half-sister who is 14 years younger than I am...... and have been in SexySister's moccasins a couple of times over the years. So what I share with you is from personal as well as professional experience.

Hope that helps clarify my point of view a little.
 
Just amazing, Oed. I can't imagine anything much more painful. I've got to be honest...if I was in a situation like that, I'd want to be the one getting the news, not the one giving. GF is dealing with hurt, you're dealing with hurt AND guilt.

I hope things go well when the sisters talk. Now, you get to find out how the sister truly feels about you.

Good luck the rest of the way.
 
Amazing.

I have to say that you have some big balls on you, OT and reading the dialogue was gut wrenching. Extremely well written. We were all there.

I can imagine that you've probably been hitting the Mylanta. Hard.

Sometimes you have to take a few steps backward....you know the cliche'. While it remains to be seen how it will all turn out what seems clear is that while g/f is feeling crushed, she knew it already in the back of her mind, tucked down deep but there nonetheless. She knew, but was kidding herself.

It may not feel like it now, but you did yourself and her an enormous favor by bringing this up now, rather than after a wedding that would never feel....right and a marriage that would feel the same.

Good luck to all three of you.
 
pretty good stuff FAlice...

You put it out there much straighter than I did that's for sure....

Looking at your 'take' on Tex's behavior here, I agree with some of the points you are making. But I am still stuck on SexySister who thinks it's just OK to see if she can turn on her sister's boyfriend.

I didn't want to be a hardarse about this, but if this situation were sitting in my office the first thing I would be thinking is that there is some family dynamics that need to be explored ASAP. I could go in to further detail but won't here. Suffice it to say that there are usually some very specific risk factors associated with this type of behavior.

And as far as a "threesome" with two sisters? I think some guys choose to deal with their discomfort by using humor (referring to the responses on this thread). The responses here are pretty typical.

Now Tex, FAlice does hit the bullseye for nailing you with the stupidity factor for referring someone here, if you told them the site to look at. I said this before and I'll say it again, g/f is the person who I have the most compassion for in this situation.

Ultimate justice would be for you and SexySister to end up perfectly miserable together in a sloppy house that drives you craZy (while she cheats on you), and g/f finds a HOT man deserving of her love and lives happily ever after.
 
FallingAlice said:
Well, I for one am not laughing.

I think it's fair to say that you have dropped a rather large bomb on top of yourself and these two women. I'm afraid, Oed, that you'll find my reading on this quite a bit different than the others.
FA,

I would like to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the situation. OT was honorable in my opinion. He did not take the easy route, and cheat on his girlfriend, nor did he drop a bomb on anyone. The sister is the one who hit on OT, not the other way around. The girlfriend does need to know what is going on (in my opinion), so she will have a chance to understand what OT has been going through, and why he is acting the way he has been. If anyone committed a betrayal, it was the sister (and by the way, I'm not saying she is neccessarily evil either).

Now one can second guess whether OT should have directed the GF to this site or not, but my guess is that she will be intelligent enough to figure out that no one is laughing at any of them (even if we interlace our posts with jokes).

The status quo was not sustainable. Now with everything out in the open, there is a chance that OT may find hapiness with one of them. If it had not all come out, he would have eventually broken up with the girlfriend. She would have wondered for a long time why he left (with no answers). OT would have been wondering for years if there was a chance.

In my opinion, he acted honorably. I doubt many women can understand the effect that lust can have on a guy. A lesser man would have succumbed to the temptation and had an affair on the side. He did the right thing, and I suspect the girlfriend will see that in the end.
________
Suzuki RE5
 
I gotta give some to Tex...Alice what was he gonna do, stay with a girl who he was obviously not feeling as much as the other? In the end that leaves the pain inside him buried away for years...Then what? Then what does he do when they are married and it is just to much and he either needs to get with the other sister or if he just gives in and cheats? He did it the best way he could....And you must understand that. How can he be a puppet of fakeness and walk around with a smile on his face while inside he does not want it?

I do think Tex is an idiot for doing this to completely destroy what he had. And believe me..It is ****ed. The sisters will obviously be pissed. and dont give me **** saying they wont, because lord knows they will be. Now his relationship will go through family arguments...Guilt...the whole nine yards. But why the hell are you showing this thread to them? Do you tell her everything Tex? There has got to be some things kept to yourself man!

But when I sit here and say...Man how could he dump her like that? So what if you had a guy you loved and then some hottie dude comes up in your life...Has the looks and is a great person? Will you get feelings? Obviously! And then what are you gonna do when it begins to take over your feelings for the other person? Alice have you ever been in the mans shoes? Have you honestly? Have you ever loved someone...But over time something "fresh" just came up? As how may I put this..."Immature" as I sound, its the truth.

Time change...And over time, things that have been around for awhile seem to get old...And then when you think of the other person you get excited...Because you dont know the road ahead, you dont know what could happen. and curiousity clouds your mind like a mother ****er. It is pretty obvious Alice you seem to be viewing it as "OK, here is the ******* boyfriend just throwing everything all away for some girl" And the truth is, that IS EXACTLY what happened.

But honestly...How much the past matter? You need an example? It was three months ago when everyone still was pals with NR, now he is enemy of the state. Times change, AND FEELINGS CHANGE. Yes I know...you could say its like dropping the past. But what can the past do? Just sit there...And the present is the effect now. Maybe a miracle will work out and you and your girl could get through this..but if you look at it, no way hose!

I know the feeling...Though I was never engaged or never with a woman for years, feelings just change and sometimes curiousity gets the best of us. He had the ****ing balls to push her off of him when he could have done ANYTHING! He put what is right over his own greed...How many ****ing people can take that claim? So Alice, before you cut down someone...Look at the ****ing situation.
 
Tex did do the right thing by pushing sister away when he was confronted with the situation and basically cornered. And yes, that must have taken a great deal of restraint to resist.

But sister had NO business egging this on, and has done serious damage to her sisterly relationship. SHE acted upon feelings and selfishly indulged in at her sister's expense. NOT nice.

Bionic's comment:

Have you ever loved someone...But over time something "fresh" just came up?


OMG. Um yea, Bionic. All of us meet "fresh" from time to time. But "fresh" and "lasting" are most often mutually exclusive experiences.

So what is the point you are trying to make to Tex? That SisterFresh is just another passing fancy? That a person should be excused for their selfish behavior because it's understandable when something "fresh" shows up?

LOL.... I think when I go crawl into bed I'm going to tell my husband I really love him but I'm looking for something "fresh" to come up;) Maybe he'll go all "George Clooney" on me so I can do a lap dance and give him something "fresh". :thumb:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... thanks for the great idea!!!
 
wyobilzfan said:
Tex did do the right thing by pushing sister away when he was confronted with the situation and basically cornered. And yes, that must have taken a great deal of restraint to resist.

But sister had NO business egging this on, and has done serious damage to her sisterly relationship. SHE acted upon feelings and selfishly indulged in at her sister's expense. NOT nice.

Bionic's comment:

Have you ever loved someone...But over time something "fresh" just came up?


OMG. Um yea, Bionic. All of us meet "fresh" from time to time. But "fresh" and "lasting" are most often mutually exclusive experiences.

So what is the point you are trying to make to Tex? That SisterFresh is just another passing fancy? That a person should be excused for their selfish behavior because it's understandable when something "fresh" shows up?

LOL.... I think when I go crawl into bed I'm going to tell my husband I really love him but I'm looking for something "fresh" to come up;) Maybe he'll go all "George Clooney" on me so I can do a lap dance and give him something "fresh". :thumb:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... thanks for the great idea!!!

Wow....You didn't get my point. I am glad you and your husband stayed together...Great. But sometimes....As seen in movies and as in real life, there is always something out there that is "fresh" enough to break it. Sometimes people need new things...and it IS cold, it DOES hurt....Is it exactly right? That is another topic to discuss....But like I said. Sometimes, you are so locked on someone that noone in this world could ever pull you guys apart. As so the case with your husband.

But how do you know this was the case here? Do you know him in person? I know he said he loved her, but he does the other girl to. So maybe he does think something is worth giving up for a chance. Now is it smart? It does not take a genius to do the math (lets see.....risk losing a woman that would have been with you for quite a while maybe forever sfor something that could maybe last a few months? not even?) I know guilt will be there, but sometimes **** happens.

Maybe you can stop eating the girl's sympathy so much and you can see the true reason why he did what he did. Sometimes...We do dumb ****, and risk it all. Is it worth it? Time can only tell...
 
FallingAlice said:
Yeah?

Think about it again. And then think about it some more.

What you imagine to be "Honorable" is merely pure stupidity. I never said that Oedipus should stay with his girlfriend. I never said that he shouldn't pursue the sister. At the same time I never suggested that he should just sleep with the sister (as an affair) and say nothing. I told him that he should figure out his relationship first. Then decide what to do about the sister later. He gets no points from me for "Style." He's an idiot with a big mouth. That's all. Honor has nothing to do with it. Pretending otherwise isn't going to help him in the future.

You know what you remind me of? You remind me of Catholic teenagers who won't use birth control when having premarital sex. For some reason, they think stupidity makes them more honorable. Guess what? Instead, they just get pregnant and it ruins their lives. Well, well. Oedipus was an honorable man, eh? So was Brutus.

I was quite clear in my advice to Oedipus. Go back to the record and check. In the end, I have simply argued that he has played the part of a fool. And I expect that fate will not be kind to him where this story is concerned.

But...we shall see. Perhaps it will all turn out well in the end. Tell me, though...were you in his place, would you have wanted this thread read by your ex-girfriend?? How would you like it if your hoped-for future in-laws read it? Oh, and would you like your future girlfriend to be reading this? Knowing that her character has been discussed and dissected by people around the country? And knowing that her own betrayal of her sister has been chronicled for all to see???? And that her betrayed sister read it???? Because all of these things are not only possible. They are probable.

But far be it for me to take the thread down. After all, it shows Oedipus to be...I'm sorry....what was it you called him? Oh, yes...an honorable man. A stupid honorable man. But an honorable man, nonetheless.

As far as what his girlfriend may or may not be feeling right now - it has to do with FEELINGS not INTELLIGENCE. We're not talking about a "rational" situation here -- as you well know. I encourage you to go back and read through all the posts as if your girlfriend was chatting with other women online. Try to get a sense for how you would feel if your girlfriend were after your brother and was trying to figure out whether or not to dump you. And then, ask yourself how you would feel if she told you that nothing had happened between her and your brother, but then revealed in the thread that the brother had indeed come on to her? How would you feel about your brother?

And how do you expect your brother would be feeling about your girlfriend who had stupidly destroyed a confidence between them? Do you suppose your brother would trust this woman with any secret of significance? Do you suppose the brother would decide...ah, yes...this is a person I can trust...trust with my intimate secrets and my life. Regardless of the fact that she just screwed my brother over and betrayed me to my brother as well as to a board of anonymous football fans.

As far as the crap about Oedipus's honor relative to the sister's honor? Spare me. They deserve each other. They're made from the same mold. Perhaps they will be happy and all's well that ends well. I, for one, doubt it.

He couldn't have handled it more poorly. And I expect that time will bear this out.

Really...think about this some more.
But why the hell are you showing this thread to them? Do you tell her everything Tex? There has got to be some things kept to yourself man!

Read what I said. I agree 100% and add another 100% to that, that he is an idiot for showing this thread to the girl...And did I say anything about honor? Alice, have you ever actually had a man come on to you that much when you had someone? Honestly...To the point where they were willing to do some ****? I know it was a low blow and of all people to her sister that she did that to..

I mean she did emss it up, but he had balls doing what he did. He had the balls to RESIST cheating. and had the balls to SPEAK THE TRUTH. Those two things my friend, are very hard for the human existance to do these days. And how are they made from the same mold? I think the sister is (sorry Tex) A piece of ****. You just dont do that...No doubt to a fiance to your sister.

but sometimes things are meant to be....And sometimes we risk it all for everything. I guess to a woman and a man things will be seen differently. What a man will look at and say is impressive to resist, or brave to actually do (meaning speak the truth) may be seen as greed, or stupidity at finest to women...Not to be sexest...But I guess to each their own views really.
 
FallingAlice said:
Let us call a spade a spade at this point. There is lust here. There is no clear indication that this is truly love. Love is patient. Love endures. True Love -- for this woman and for himself -- would have suggested to Oedipus the following course of action.

1. Wait. Figure out what is wrong with the relationship with the sister and end it gracefully and with decency.

2. Wait some more. Hope that the sister will wait for him. Know that if she is truly in love with him (rather than playing a game) that she will be there for him when he's ready.

3. When it's time and wounds have healed, slowly reintroduce himself into this family's life. As an honorable man. Not a turd.

4. Date the sister. Get to know her. Have all the fabulous sex possible. Mazeltov!

In the interest of patting myself on the back here, this was what I posted a couple of days ago:

OK, now you've just thrown another twist to the scenario. Now you're saying that you love your current g/f like a sister-in-law. That's not fair to her. You need to resolve this issue first, as if the little sis was not in the picture.

If you end the relationship, you need to let things cool down for a little bit. Let little sis know that there's a possibility, but you need time to sort things out. If you don't immediately jump into things, the family may see it as a natural progression from friends to lovers.

I agree that's its important for Oed to walk away for a little while. He may be faced with the possibility of the sisters working things out and turning on him as the bad guy. Such is the nature of high risk, high reward.

I have to agree with some others here that I felt very uncomfortable when Oed brought up this message board. I can say that if it was my wife, she would have cut off my manhood if she found out I had aired this publicly. The mistake was not that he sought advice, the mistake was that he told her.

I still think Oed did the right thing by talking this out with the GF. This was something that had been gnawing at him for a long time. Sooner or later, this was going to come out. Better for it to come out sooner. But you are correct, Alice and Wyo, this may very well end up being something he regrets. But if so, I would categorize this as "it was never meant to be".
 
FallingAlice said:
Again, just so you know that we're on the same page here, Bideau, I completely agree that he had to talk it out with the sister. And I completely agree that it would be foolish to stay in a relationship with a woman he doesn't love.

My point is that he needed to be careful about what he said in that discussion. Because honestly what he said makes him come off as a two-timing manipulator -- not an honorable man. What was he thinking revealing the sister's actions? If that girl is so dumb as to trust him any further then she's a bigger fool than he is.

And most certainly, the fact that he directed the girlfriend here tells me all I need to know about Oedipus's stability.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree a little bit here. Maybe it's because we're seeing this from differing genders.

I don't think there's a man on this board, married or otherwise, who has not had his attention diverted in some form. Whether it be by simple lust or finding ourselves making a serious emotional connection with a workmate or friend. How we handle does not necessarily speak to our own personal weaknesses. It speaks to our relationship with our spouse or SO. I know it sounds cliche, but its the nature of the male beast to have one eye on his mate and another eye on what passes by. I truly believe that if the relationship is strong, it'll survive anything. That's certainly true in my case. Have I been tempted? Absolutely. But I've got 24 years, 2 kids and a planned future invested in my relationship. I can't imagine anything that's worth sacrificing that. Oed did not have this type of investment.

To question Oed's stability is not fair. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and blaming his weak relationship, not weak character. But maybe that's the "guy" reaction because we can all see ourselves in his place.

I've got to say, I sense between you and Wyo a little bit of a "sisterhood" response to this. That may not be fair, but as you said, call a spade a spade. This may be more a battle of sexes than anything else.
 
Interesting thing, here.

I talked with both G/F and sister last night, seperately and together. Putting everything else aside, neither of them had a problem with me posting here, both understood why I did, and both had read it. Both understood that the threesome stuff was a joke. Both laughed at the misunderstandings and mischaracterizations that stemmed from this, particularly Sister as some kind of "Jezebel," which couldn't be more rediculous. I don't know how many times I have to say that she didn't try to seduce me, that everything was verbal, that she dresses very modestly, etc. In fact, what I said about her leaning in close and asking if she was wrong to think that I felt the same way is about the closest to "seductive" I've ever seen her.

BUT...

This MORNING I got a phonecall from G/F. She had looked at the board again, and seen Alice's and WYO's comments, and she was seriously pissed off. Both at them for their comments, and NOW she was starting to get mad at me for posting it. Why? Not because it was aired publicly. Hell, there are more than 10 million people in Texas - it's hiding in plain sight. She was pissed off at the mischaracterizations, the character assassinations, on both her and her sister, and now on me.

She's not some no-self-respect chick who's pissed off because her sister's hot. She's hot - beautiful more than hot, almost, but still hot. She's a successful, smart, beautiful woman. She's dated dozens of guys before me, probably 4 or 5 seriously. I don't think she's going to "fight for me," not because she doesn't want to, but because she KNOWS. She's known for awhile.

As for Sister, I've already gone into the Jezebel comparison and how stupid that is. Let me add this to the pile: she's a virgin. Hell, they both are. 27 and 24, beautiful, smart, virgins. And they went to college for more than their "Mrs." Degree. Both of them know that they are good looking, and both of them make a point of dressing modestly precisely so they don't attract the kind of guys that are into sleeze.

And remember, this isn't about "fresh." This is a young woman who I've known for some time, and who is one of my closest friends. Not some chippy who waltzed into my office some day in a tankini and asked if I would be so kind as to rub some lotion on her back.

She's not going to tell her father, of course...and frankly, I wouldn't mind if she did.
There's a reason, and a d@mn good one, that the guys on this thread have been pretty supportive of how I handled the situation: because either they, or most of the guys they know, wouldn't have had the balls to stand up for themselves and do what I did. The girl's father is an interesting combination of a "Man's man" and an oldstyle gentleman. If he were to read this, he'd end up calling me and we'd talk it out. We'd probably yell some, but he'd understand, and know that what I did was honest, and took guts. And I KNOW this about him.

No, I don't tell G/F everything, but I always make sure to let her know where I stand, and what I feel. THAT is one of the most painful things to her in this situation - that I held back something I was FEELING from her for so long. I've made a conscious effort to invest myself fully in any serious relationship I enter - while I'm generally a private person, in a romantic relationship I open up as much as I possibly can. I WANTED her to read this thread, so she could know how I've been feeling, and what I've been thinking in a medium that was time stamped. To make up for some lost time, to fill her in.

As for not telling G/F why I was ending the relationship...frankly, you guys can go screw. That's total hoss-sh!t. Does that or does that not go directly against the constant complaint that guys do not explain their feelings or their actions? How many times do women complain that the guy ended a relationship, and didn't even give a reason? And you know what? This reason SURE AS HELL WOULD HAVE COME OUT AT SOME POINT. Remember this: I'm not trying to avoid hurt feelings. They happen, and there is simply no way to avoid hurt feelings in this situation - period. They're freaking SISTERS...even if I moved to Uzbekistan, it isn't like they wouldn't have wondered why, and talked about it. I promise you that Sister would have told G/F about it, and then any chance I might have possibly had to salvage a relationship (any relationship) with either of them would be sunk.

Alice - I hope it makes you feel great to be holier-than thou, and must-be-right on a message board, reading things in to a situation about people you don't know. Because NOW G/F is pissed off. She didn't care about me posting here...frankly she was interested to see the different responses, and we all shared a (somewhat uncomfortable) joke about a threesome. They can joke about that because of the type of people they are - it hasn't a prayer in the world of happening.
But she's pissed off now, at the mischaracterizations, and at me for allowing herself and her sister to be painted that way. As of early this morning. I take responsibility for that, because I didn't go into as much detail as I should have about what sort of people they were. But to launch into the kind of self-righteous rant that you did above is inexcusable.

You have to know that you DON'T know the people involved, and that people are different. You must know that the information you have is immeasurably incomplete, by the nature of the medium. And yet you are presumtuous enough to d@mn me, Sister, AND G/F for a situation that there is no way of you knowing the inner dynamics of, involving people you don't know. Did you happen to notice that everyone else in the thread was very cautious in giving their advice, tempering their remarks with things like "Its hard to know," etc.? ("Bang the sister" aside, of course).

REALPOLITIK, Alice? I hope my love life never comes to that. I'm not into fuzzing facts to soothe feelings, and I try to tell it like it is. I've made a point to try and live my life much more in conformity to idealism than to pragmatism. I have a hard time regretting that, even though it's cost me a lot. I'm fine with that. Hell, case in point. I'm not a virgin, and I don't believe that pre-marital sex is wrong. But my G/F did, so I didn't have sex for well over a year, because I wouldn't cheat (didn't want to), and I respected her beliefs too much to try and change them.

What is it coming to when a group of guys is applauding another guy for being honest and sharing his feelings, and the girls are pissed off because he did, that saying what he really felt was too cruel and insensitive? Hoss-sh!t.
 
I would definitely make sure that the next girl I went out with was a triplet. That could be fun.
 
FallingAlice said:
If you think that women don't always have one eye on their mate and one on other attractive men, then you are mistaken.

This isn't about the sexes. I don't think there's anything wrong with Oedipus breaking it off with one sister and ultimately trying to start a relationship with the other.

What I find suggestive of imbalance is that he would direct his girlfriend here. That's all. I don't think he owes the woman to love her. I don't expect Oedipus to have any investment in the relationship. Just quit filling me full the "He's such an honorable guy thing."

OK, now you've got me totally confused.

The only problem you have is that Oed told his girlfriend about this thread. Is that correct? I happen to agree with you that it was a mistake. But why the enormous amount of rage?

Let his chips fall where they may. I happen to think that he did the honorable thing. I'm not in a position to judge his motives and I'm certainly in no position to pass moral judgements on two woman I know nothing about. I may speculate on the outcome as others have, but I will not pass judgement on any of their moral characters.
 
FallingAlice said:
Guess what.

They're lying to you.

And if they like what the men on this board have said about them and implied then they're very strange women indeed.

I can just hear them now, giggling...really...a three way...with my sister??? How...charming. How funny. Tee-hee.

You might need a reading class. I didn't say they liked it, I said they were laughing about it because it's rediculous and so far from the truth. The conversation about the obsession with sex in our society is an old one for us. We joke around and are very crass to poke fun at that.

Exactly what is it that you think they are lying to me about?

Believe me....this is just the start of it for you. Right now they may be finding some straw man to blame for their feelings. But their anger is with you. Not me. And not Wyo.

Just wait. You're the one who has created the mess for yourself. Not me. And not Wyo.
I'm not blaming either of you for the situation. I'm blaming you because you're insisting that you are right about people you couldn't be more wrong about. The situation...developed. I didn't create it, and I'm proud of how I handled it as it arose. No, they're not pissed at you, they're pissed - period. Women are at least as inherently competative as men, and to be derided by someone who doesn't know you is embarassing. They expect the crudeness from the men, and can understand that.

And understand this...they're in shock right now and want to believe the best about you. It's easier to blame some other woman that they don't know. But that will change soon enough.
And what is it, exactly, that I have done that is wrong? The only things you've pointed out are 1) that I directed them to this site; and 2) that I actually TOLD G/F why I was ending the relationship. I stand by my actions in both of those instances - I think I did the right thing...or at least the thing that was the least wrong in a very complicated situation.

I'm sure they'll both (together and seperately) go through phases of hating me. That's fine, I expect it. This isn't going to resolve itself overnight.

As far as your "Honesty" goes and your honor? Those left the door months ago. Betrayal does not require consummation. That's a convenient illusion for you all at the moment. But eventually both of them will come to understand that.
How so? As I've stated before, what would you have me do? Break up with my girlfriend the minute my eye wanders? Discuss it in detail every time? ("Boy, check out the rack on that chick! What a hottie she is over there. Love to tag that ass, huh?") Right.

Tell me, Alice, when did my honesty leave town? What have I done that makes me less than honorable? The fact that I DIDN'T cheat? The fact that I worked like hell to make this feel like it was only about "fresh?" The fact that I actually told the truth to all involved, and didn't try to make myself out to be a hero?

And they keeping the board. And you think that it's just all about their feelings about what I've said? Uh huh.

You dumb f*ck.

Go back and read this thread again. From the top.

I have no idea what the first sentense means. The rest of it I've already addressed.

But you're right of course. Always. Which is why your Iraq commentary was so very relevant in this thread. *insert little rolly eyes here* I'm glad you know me so much better than I do, or they do.

If I were you, Alice, I might at this point make a comment that it sounds like you are retaining some bitterness from a previous encounter that you were involved in, and projecting that on this situation. But I'm not nearly that friggin presumptuous.

Where this stands now is this: they're working it out, I'm working it out with them when they call on me to do so. They're pissed, hurt, confused, and in shock, definately. Aimed at me, aimed at each other, aimed at whatever is convenient. But we all know each other well enough to know that no one was out to hurt the others, and that the whole situation sucks. There's no easy way to do this.
 
FallingAlice said:
Wait a second...let's see now.

They're virgins at the ages of 27 and 24 all because of their upstanding moral character and yet they had absolutely no problem with comments about a potential three-way and advice such as "Bang em both!"

Right. Sure. The women I've known who remained virgins for that long would find nothing amusing about this sort of discussion.

Don't stereotype, Alice, it's not becoming. As I say above, the conversation about society's sex-obsession is an old one for us. We joke about stuff like that ALL THE TIME. Not everyone who remains a virgin is a prude, you know.

And the father...an upstanding old-fashioned sort of gentleman...is just going to be a little angry with you and holler a bit. I got an idea. Why don't you send the father over here to read the thread. That would be a great idea. Maybe you two can joke about it over a pint.
No, he's going to be pissed. I expect a phone call or a visit. But I also expect that he's going to understand in time. I offered to the sisters to be the one to bring it to Sean, if they wanted. Obviously now is not the right time to do it.

I expect it to be very uncomfortable for awhile. But I think he will understand in time that I am a much better fit for daughter #2 than for daughter #1. And, in time, I suspect that me dating daughter #1 will be viewed as a happy accident that brought me into daughter #2's life. That is assuming the absolute best case scenario, of course - that G/F finds another man and is happily married, and that the bitterness of all of this fades.

But given how this has played out thus far, I have reason to hope for that.

And these sisters, after knowing that the one came onto you behind the other's back, have absolutely no difficulty with each other?
Of course not. I never said that, and I don't think I ever implied that, Alice. Do you only read every other word?

Oh god. This is too funny. It's like talking to a blind man. A deluded blind man. Wake up kid. This story is going to get uglier and uglier. And it won't have anything to do

If you believe that, it's merely a convenient self-delusion on your part. And you'll just go through this again.

I'm not responsible for your stupidity. And don't blame any of what will come your way on anyone other than your own dumb self.
Oh, okay. I get it now.
 
truer words...

...... TEX says....

"What is it coming to when a group of guys is applauding another guy for being honest and sharing his feelings, and the girls are pissed off because he did, that saying what he really felt was too cruel and insensitive? Hoss-sh!t."


Um, yep. You are dead-on there, Oed. There is an understandable difference of opinion that would be expected here along gender lines.

I still stand by what I say. A person's virginity or lack thereof has NOTHING to do with the subconscious issues that go on between siblings. I don't think someone's sexual preference to remain celebate has anything to do with what was allowed to happen here.

You seem to feel the need to defend and characteriZe these women as good wholesome women. WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THAT MAKE? My opinion stands and will not change that it was self-indulgent for sister to let her OWN feelings get to first base.

It is, has been, and ever shall be inappropriate behavior on her part. I don't care if she is the niece of Mother Teresa, that has nothing to do with what happened!

That stated, she's the one that has to live with it. G/F has every right to be mad, but that anger at any comments I've made is likely a projection of her embarassment and disgust at the situation being played out on a message board. I am nothing more than a persona on a message board. The person she's really mad at is YOU.

She may not say so yet, but g/f has a LOT of stuff to try to process, so I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt here as far as her misplaced anger. Not to worry, the repercussions of this will be playing out for a LOOOOOONG time for all of you.

Unless of course, somehow y'all just figure out a nice way to sweep this all under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. But in the end, it will come back to bite again and again and again.

This is my last post on this thread. Having confirmation from you that g/f is reading this stuff, I want no further part in this discussion. At this point, I hope Alice or someone pulls this thread. Just my one cent, but I question the value of leaving this thread here when anonymity has been broken.

It's like driving by the scene of a horrific accident. I refuse to be a gawker and that's what this is beginning to feel like.

My sincerest positive thoughts and wishes to all who are involved in this difficult situation, and that it somehow turns out to be an opportunity for personal growth for everyone involved.


OUT.
 
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