Seperation of Church and State?

Undertaker #59 on 10-20-2006 at 09:05 AM said:
Both. Einstein's theory of General Relativity is not incompatible with Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation.
Well, My understanding is that Newton said that Gravity was an attraction that all matter had on each other, whereas Einstein say that Gravity actually curves the "lines of space" so that a body in motion believes it is going in a straight line, but in actuality it is not. I'll agree that while going at relatively slow speeds, their perspective equations give (more or less) the same result, but at higher speeds (like for satelites in orbit), Einstein's equations gives a more accurate result.
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freak on 10-20-2006 at 08:53 AM said:
Oh, the irony. Perhaps you should read the Constitution again.

And FYI, the current interpretation of the 1st Amendment is not 200+ years of established precedent........it dates to the early 1900s.

The history lesson is interesting, but how the constitution was applied 200 years ago is irrelevant.

Maybe I should have said that people should not only read the Constitution, but actually understand what it means. Today, not 200 years ago.

And it means that you can't teach religion in the public schools.
 
mikiemo83 on 10-20-2006 at 11:56 AM said:
how about each child, or their parent, is given a period of time to express his religious beliefs - say 1 day followed by 2 days of open discussion where questions are asked and each student is allowed to question for themselves what is different from their religion.

this allows for a representation of each pupil with equal time, yes you could have several of one religion but and that get extra time but you generally will have this in life anyway

I'm guess I'm just satisfied that our constitution guarantees that all children and parents can express their religious beliefs every second of the day that they are not in school. I don't see the need to expand it to schooltime.
 
dchester on 10-20-2006 at 12:14 PM said:
Well, My understanding is that Newton said that Gravity was an attraction that all matter had on each other, whereas Einstein say that Gravity actually curves the "lines of space" so that a body in motion believes it is going in a straight line, but in actuality it is not. I'll agree that while going at relatively slow speeds, their perspective equations give (more or less) the same result, but at higher speeds (like for satelites in orbit), Einstein's equations gives a more accurate result.

I think Einstein's theory is more of an expansion of Newton's original law. General relativity unifies special relativity and Newton's law of universal gravitation with the insight that gravitation is not due to a force but rather is a manifestation of curved space and time, this curvature being produced by the mass-energy and momentum content of the spacetime. So yes, from my understanding, Newton's equations do not work as well on as grand a scale.

Anyway, my point kind of was most people don't really understand what a scientific theory is. In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts, in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality.

In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.

It is from this understanding that I made my statement about evolution being as proven as gravity.
 
Do either of you know how "String Theory" fits in?

I've watched "The Elegant Universe" on PBS a couple of times, and I still don't get it.
 
I believe that there are elements of quantum mechanics that are incompatible with Einstein's theories. I think that string theory tries to bind them all together with a "Theory of Everything." I did find this note though:

String theory remains to be verified. No version of string theory has yet made an experimentally verifiable prediction that differs from those made by other theories. In this sense, string theory is still in a "larval stage": it is not a proper physical theory. It possesses many features of mathematical interest and may yet become important in our understanding of the universe, but it requires further developments before it is accepted or discarded. Since string theory may not be tested in the foreseeable future, some scientists have asked if it even deserves to be called a scientific theory.
 
I watched "The Elegant Universe"

I usually "get" the shows on Physics but that one made my head hurt. The best explaination I can come up with is String Theory is a mathematical phenomenon which is apparently very difficult to explain in non-mathematical terms.
 
Benign Despot on 10-20-2006 at 01:00 PM said:
I watched "The Elegant Universe"

I usually "get" the shows on Physics but that one made my head hurt. The best explaination I can come up with is String Theory is a mathematical phenomenon which is apparently very difficult to explain in non-mathematical terms.

That's what it looked like to me. They made the math work, but they can't do any experiments to prove it.
 
Undertaker #59 on 10-20-2006 at 12:51 PM said:
I believe that there are elements of quantum mechanics that are incompatible with Einstein's theories. I think that string theory tries to bind them all together with a "Theory of Everything."
This whole subject is fascinating. It's kind of ironic how Einstein never really bought into Quantum mechanics, evene though it evolved from (I believe) his Special Theory of Relativity. When asked about Quantum Mechanics, Einstein dismissed it, with his well known quote, "God doesn't play dice with the universe". He spent most of his older years working on his "Theory of Everything", would he felt would disprove Quantum mechanics.

While he was alive, a lot of people felt Einstein was over the hill, wasting his time with this foolish theory, but now people are realizing that his idea of a "Theory of Everything", is actually needed to resolve some of the things that seem intuitively flawed with our current understanding.

String theory is one of the attempts to comes up with a "Theory of everything". I think it involves looking at the world in somewhere from 9 to 11 dimensions (I've forgotten the precise number, and am too lazy to look it up), as opposed to the simple 4 dimensions as Einstein explaned it. Unlike Relativty, it's rather complicated stuff. The documentarys on PBS just don't do it justice.
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Usually with this type of Psysics someone develops a theory using mathematics and is then able to make a predicition about some observable phenomenon which "prooves" the theory.

To date string theory doesn't create any predictable observations.
 
freak on 10-20-2006 at 10:24 AM said:
It does not stand to reason, because the "judges in every state" are bound to uphold the Constitution.

And what the Constitution said, was that CONGRESS was prohibited.

It does stand to reason. I don't agree with you there, which is probably the crux of the constitutional debate.


2.
Most people don't know that Jefferson's letter was originally much longer, but he was convinced by his Attorney General, Levi Lincoln, to edit it down. Here's the original text of the portion you cite (courtesy of an FBI lab):

The part you cite in bold was deleted by Jefferson (noted in the margin of his letter) to avoid offending his own party members. The complete text of the letter as sent can be seen at www.loc.gov.

Jefferson was using this opportunity to make a PERSONAL statement, answering critics about why he refused to proclaim days of fasting/ thanksgiving, as King George did in England.


It was understood as a one-way "wall" to protect religion from govt interference.
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So if this was Jefferson's own personal statement, who can say that's not what was meant in the Constitution?

Also, when I cited SCOTUS earlier, I wasn't referencing the ORIGINAL constitution but as how matters stand today, which seems relevant for the story that started this thread.

I didn't see your original response to my 1st quote of Article VI, which is why I essentially repeated myself (oops).

All my information was taken from the Library of Congress website, www.loc.gov, or www.archives.gov.

Sorry I may have edited a point from your reply to save space.

Did the founding fathers want each individual state to establish it's own religion? My interpetation is no, which is the point of the debate across the nation.
 
freak on 10-20-2006 at 08:56 AM said:
Hey, thanks for agreeing with me.

Madison advocates protecting the rights of the minority.

That does not deny the majority the right to rule.

It's a basic premise of our form of govt that the majority's will prevails, so long as it does not violate the minority's rights.

The majority can rule, so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of the minority which. having. prayer. in. a. public. school. does.

Can someone please tell me this? Where, in the Bill of Rights, is the confusing language? Where is this not 100% clear on the separation of church and state? Where is the disconnect? It's not confusing to me. It's perfectly clear. It's only ever considered unclear to people with the agenda to get prayer in public schools. Read it again, and tell me where the confusion is.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 
Steve-o on 10-20-2006 at 01:55 PM said:
Can someone please tell me this? Where, in the Bill of Rights, is the confusing language? Where is this not 100% clear on the separation of church and state? Where is the disconnect? It's not confusing to me. It's perfectly clear. It's only ever considered unclear to people with the agenda to get prayer in public schools. Read it again, and tell me where the confusion is.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
I don't know if I can directly answer your question, as I don't find it the least bit confusing. It's pretty clear that the phrase "separation of church and state is not in the Constitution". The first Amendment puts limits on what the Congress is allowed to do, in that the Congress can not establish a religion.

Some other things the first amendment also says is that the Congress is not supposed to prohibit free speech, or the right of the people to peaceably assemble. So if some people wanted to assemble and exercise their right to free speech (to discuss religion, for example), one could make an argument that the Congress could not prohibit this (possibly not even if it were on school grounds).
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String theory is now considered a dead end. And they are now looking for new, non-silly ways to find a unified field theory.
 
dchester on 10-20-2006 at 02:53 PM said:
I don't know if I can directly answer your question, as I don't find it the least bit confusing. It's pretty clear that the phrase "separation of church and state is not in the Constitution". The first Amendment puts limits on what the Congress is allowed to do, in that the Congress can not establish a religion.

Some other things the first amendment also says is that the Congress is not supposed to prohibit free speech, or the right of the people to peaceably assemble. So if some people wanted to assemble and exercise their right to free speech (to discuss religion, for example), one could make an argument that the Congress could not prohibit this (possibly not even if it were on school grounds).

And a teacher is an agent of the state, therefore disallowing them to organize religious assemblies in the name of the state.
 
JD10367 on 10-18-2006 at 02:43 PM said:
The key here is that it's on school time. It's apparently an hour in the middle of the school day. No matter how you slice it, they're gonna come up on the wrong side of that one. If you want to do it before or after school that's one thing, but when the government demands your child's presence in school and then some of that time is allotted to a specific religion, that ain't gonna fly.

Now, on the other hand, if they wanted to have a NON-DENOMINATIONAL religious "hour", that'd be different. One in which Christians can go to their Bible class, Muslims and Hindus can do what they want, little pagan children can read up on wicca, LOL... that I can see. Or have a religious class which covers all religions over the course of a semester--Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, all the "isms" they can find. Then you're actually teaching something--not just giving time for Christians to go do their thing while everyone else stands around like Charlie Brown without a date. :D
I think this crosses the line and I don't know if they can repair it very easily. Religion being taught, during school hours on site, while nonparticipants are A shut down and B held hostage prolly can't fly any more than the dodo bird.

But what cracks me up is the phoney pity crap with the little poor alleged left out kid who supposedly is crying wawawa because he can't get any religion or MATH, :D


Cheers, BostonTim
 
Getting here late so I'll just provide a sort of stream of conciousness type response.

Undertaker #59 on 10-20-2006 at 12:38 PM said:
I think Einstein's theory is more of an expansion of Newton's original law. General relativity unifies special relativity and Newton's law of universal gravitation with the insight that gravitation is not due to a force but rather is a manifestation of curved space and time, this curvature being produced by the mass-energy and momentum content of the spacetime. So yes, from my understanding, Newton's equations do not work as well on as grand a scale.

Actually GR is related to SR in only an indirect way.

SR is limited to "inertial reference frames", that is it only applies to situations with constant velocity. It explicitly avoids cases where acceleration occurs.

GR addresses the situation when one has acceleration.

Einstein postulated that there was no difference between the mass used in Newton's laws of motion (inertial mass) and mass used in Newton's law of gravity.

Believe it or not, this assumption has profound implications.

Consider the following hypothetical.

Suppose you are in a room on earth and you have any possible set of experimental equipment to measure the weight of an object (gravitational mass).

Now suppose you are in a space ship far far away from any planet or sun (i.e. "weightless") and the ship is accelerating at a constant 1G. You have the same set of experimental equipment as the room on earth.

What will the two set of experiments measure?

The exact same thing, in fact it is not possible to tell the difference between the two setups by any experiment you could perform inside that room, you can only tell by looking out the window.

If you can so easily mimic gravity by the proper type of motion, maybe the idea of a "force of gravity" isn't true and is actually due to some other sort of motion.

This line of reasoning lead to the curved space-time model for gravity.

And to be clear, the breakdown of Newtonian gravity is not at large scales, but in strong gravitational fields, or highly curved space-time in the Einsteinian model.

The problem with GR at the quantum scale, is that curvature of space-time at that scale doesn't work well (mathematically).

To explain why two separate analogies are effective.

At a sufficiently small scale, space-time is thought to not be continuous. That is, instead of the solid rubber sheet that is seen to stretch in most of the GR examples, you have a "foam" that won't stretch smoothly.

The other one is that the amount of curvature increases as you get closer to the "surface" of the particle/object. At the micro scale, those distances get smaller and smaller and eventually become infinitely small, thus infinitely curved.

This is in fact one of the major advantages in the String theory and it's offshoots (M theory, D-branes, etc.) is that it avoids this particular source of infinities in calculations.

In "standard" quantum mechanics, each of the fundamental particles are point objects. By definition, a point has no physical extent in any direction. Therefore it is possible for these particles to interact at virtually zero distance. All of the equations that describe these interactions involved something similar to the 1/r^2 relationship in Newtonian gravity.

Thus you end up dividing by zero and get an infinite result.

The string theory postulates that the fundamental particles are one dimensional strings. They are so short that they appear like a point, but the fact that they have a very very small, but finite, size means they can't be at zero distance, thus the infinities go away.

As far as being able to conduct experiments to prove or disprove the theory, that is primarily a limit of energy.

It requires an amount of energy far beyond any particle accelerator to directly test the present theories, however, quantum mechanics faced the same problem in its early years, so there is reason to think that someone will figure out a way to do a low energy test some day.

Oh, and who ever mentioned the Giraffe, repeated a common misconception on why it has a long neck.

The neck is long not to allow it to get more food, but to allow it to drink.

The Giraffe is one of a few animals that has longer front legs than back legs. That configuration allows the animal to run faster using less energy. However, it does pose a problem on how to get a drink.

If the neck stays the same length, you would have to kneel or lie down to get your head to the water. Clearly not a great idea with lions or other predators hanging around the water hole. Thus the long neck.

With regards to the question on religion and violence.

I don't think religion is any different than any other "-ism" out there in terms of being responsible for war, death and destruction.

Nationalism, Communism, Nazism, racism, etc. all share the same common element with the worst examples of any religious based -ism.

They all form a way of some leader to combine a group of people together, to separate "them" from "us". The fact that these leaders often use violence against the "them" says more about the nature of man, and those individual leaders, than it does about any particular "-ism".

I don't agree that if one eliminated any individual "-ism" from the list you would have altered human history significantly, because there is always another "-ism" to substitute and achieve the same tragedies.

As far as belief in a religion, humans use a whole host of methods to help them deal with the unknowns and tragedies in life. Some use religion, some use psychotherapy, some use sports. There are hundreds of different methods used by people for this.

If that particular trick works for you, who am I to say you cannot use it. This of course assumes that your method does not clearly impact the rights of others. For example if your trick is to torture other people to death, that isn't something that would be allowed.

I do not think you have the right to make me use your method, but by the same token I do not have the right to prevent you from using yours.
 
"We're not attacking religious education release programs," Suess said. "They can be constitutional if they're done correctly."

You know, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the people that organized this class did it knowing that some parents would object, and then they could immediately go to the media and cry "They're trying to kick God out of our schools!"

It's all in the spin.
 
O_P_T on 10-21-2006 at 04:15 PM said:
I do not think you have the right to make me use your method, but by the same token I do not have the right to prevent you from using yours.
That sums up how I feel.
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TrueBeliever on 10-21-2006 at 04:54 PM said:
You know, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the people that organized this class did it knowing that some parents would object, and then they could immediately go to the media and cry "They're trying to kick God out of our schools!"

It's all in the spin.

Sorry guy...That would be the ACLU that does that.

It is unfortunate that this is happening at all. But we the majority have allowed the few to make laws via the bench over the majority. We have allowed the Constitution to be raped and pillared one line at a time until the document is so poorly interpreted that we now have this situation at hand. The fact that one person is able to stop the majority based on a false interpretation of the Constitution is very sad.

Please keep in mind all…. The ACLU is not an organization that is set on defending the Constitution. It is set on CHANGING it to fit their leftist agenda/manifesto. I we the majority are to blame for letting them do it. It has to stop before we morph into socialist society were the very things that have made this country great are wiped out of it.

If nothing else this story, indeed this thread, outlines why it is so vitally important that we put strict constructionist jurists back on the high court. Judges that will not try to change the Constitution to fit their political ideology but will instead decide only if a law is Constitutional.


Judges do not make law the legislative branch does.
 
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