Seperation of Church and State?

[Steve-o]

FWIW, I just checked the back of my One Dollar Bill. Among other things, it says: "In God We Trust".

But our country wasn't founded on it. We were almost at our first centennial before that got tacked on.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

 

[Patriots44]

CKA - great way to spice it up!

Many things have changed since I was a grade schooler (I'm 40) and people often point to our schools when they want to make a point over something they don't like (violent video games, violence on TV, Rock/Rap/Heavy Metal, helicopter parents, etc).

I'm not religious myself, didn't attend church except weddings and funerals, didn't go to CCD. I also didn't belong to a gang, didn't blow up my school, and didn't get in trouble with the police. (I did steal beers from the fridge when the parents weren't looking... but hey, who didn't do that!)

I lean towards believing that if kids are raised to respect teachers, police and "elders", and get punished when they act like spoiled brats, that might help more then "the fear of god".
I honestly don't know anyone who ever didn't do something because they thought they would go to hell. Maybe they figured they could just mention it during confession and get off the hook!

I'll have to check out that other religion-based thread mentioned above. I may have more "thoughts" to add!

 

[blantyr]

What happens when a rabbi, a mullah, a witch, an ACLU lawyer and a football coach show up at the school to talk to any kids who don't want to go to the Bible class? At what age should it be the kid's choice, rather than the parent's?

I'll go along with the 'too many lawsuits' and 'not on school property during school hours' viewpoints. Alas, unless you have some mechanism such as lawsuits, the majority will try to impose their own culture.

 

[Alcoholic9*]

Wrong! People misinterpreting religion have caused the violence.

So pretty much everybody then.

 

[Alcoholic9*]

But our country wasn't founded on it. We were almost at our first centennial before that got tacked on.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

You have to admit christianity is THE government sponsored religion though, which totally goes against the constitution. However, as long as there are millions of christians in this country, who will toss their vote to whatever politician mentions Jesus in his speeches, there's not much that can be done about it.

 

[Umfold]

Alas, unless you have some mechanism such as lawsuits, the majority will try to impose their own culture.

That's it, right there. That's the key. It has nothing to do with spirituality. And everything to do with culture.

Just about every religion is based on some yahoo claiming to speak for god. And this yahoo who claims to speak for god invariably says in effect, 'God favors your culture above all others.'

Whether it’s not working on Sunday, or making women cover their faces, or telling certain people that they can’t get married, these are cultural issues that have nothing to do with a supreme being.



I say if anybody wants to teach the bible on school grounds they have to first prove it's the word of god.

And um, lots a luck trying to do that.

 

[cka203]

CKA - great way to spice it up!

See what happens when I get bored?

 

[Steve-o]

You have to admit christianity is THE government sponsored religion though, which totally goes against the constitution. However, as long as there are millions of christians in this country, who will toss their vote to whatever politician mentions Jesus in his speeches, there's not much that can be done about it.

Well, hey, the farther along time goes, the farther away from the ideas of the real Patriots in this country.

You know, the guys in the funny hats who had a tea party and fought the British. They were pretty smart guys, and they didn't have a lot of schools, but they wouldn't want religion in them, if they did.

Questioning how they founded this country is unAmerican!

at:

 

[JD10367]

First came promoting the idea that the Constitution spells out a specific seperation of Church and State (you guys all seem pretty bright, so I'm assuming that you know that it doesn't- rather states that the government shall not establish or promote any religion).

And therein lies the crux (pardon the pun) of the problem: the U.S. is essentially a Christian country masquerading as a non-denominational one.

I find the whole thing pretty funny. We have "In God We Trust" on our money. If you go to court, you have to put your hand on a Bible and swear, "So help me God". The 'Pledge Of Alliegance' states "One nation under God". You have a crappy (IMO) president who likes to trot out God in his speeches (when it suits him, of course). Etcetera. And yet there's supposedly a separation between church and state.

I don't particularly care one way or another. I could care less if the U.S. was Christian, Jewish, atheist, or Buddhist. I just find it funny that so many of these clashes stem from the fact that the U.S. really IS a religious country.

 

[Darth Despot]

Religion is a cultural phenomenon. It is related to belief and spirituality, but in the end in an institution, like government, with many of the same plusses and minuses

Whenever I read a story like this I want to ask the "religious" folks the following question.

"If you were a Christian, living in say Iran, and the Mullah said that the Koran would be taught in public school regardless of how you felt about it would you think that was fair or not?" So that we might be free to follow our conscience and practice whichever faith our heart chooses it is not the place of government (of which the schools are a part) to place one religion (in this case Christianity) above another.

So if this school were offering Koran study and Torah study (and perhaps a comparative religion course for the unaffiliated) along side bible study I think I'd have less of a problem with it, but Christianity is a religion and claiming that the bible study is non-denominational is disingenuous.

To those who say that there is no Constitutional separation of Church and State (our lawyer friends can correct me if I'm wrong) the Courts are charged by the Constitution with interpreting the law, and the Courts, through precident have said there is.

Finally a few folks have critisized the mother for filing a lawsuit. If this were her first step I'd agree, but if she approached the school (and the school board) about this issue and was told to go suck an egg what choice did she have?

 

[Wandering Athol]

Meanwhile, our public school system is in a constant state of decline- have any of you seen the Fed Ex commercial where the guy can't find China on a map? I personally think that this commercial is idiotic, but that's a clear statement as to the quality of education that kids are getting. Self-esteem and social promotion are the order of the day, who gives a **** if the kid can read or do simple math? As long as they feel good about themselves is all that counts.

A 25-year-old blue collar worker asked me yesterday how to write "one hundred and six thousand" . I sheeeet you not. He couldn't figure out how to do it....and he was the foreman.

It renewed my confidence that I will continue to have access to high-ish-paying jobs in the future....or at least until my industry is outsourced to China or India.

I suggest you have your kids bone up on Buddhist, Hinduist, and Chinese folk religions/cultures.

 

[patfanallan]

If it weren't for religion

Would there be a war in Iraq? How many terrorists would blow themselves up if they didn't believe in an afterlife?

Religion is a form of brainwashing. Your religion depends on who is doing the brainwashing. Some people have figured this out.

 

[SteelerFan87]

You have to admit christianity is THE government sponsored religion though, which totally goes against the constitution. However, as long as there are millions of christians in this country, who will toss their vote to whatever politician mentions Jesus in his speeches, there's not much that can be done about it.

Is there a law that says you have to be a Christian? Is there a church anywhere that calls itself the "official church of the US"? If you aren't a Christian, do you automatically get put in jail/executed/persecuted? No? Then I guess there's no government sponsored religion. There may be a religion that the majority of our government officials believe in, but in no way is anyone forced to believe in a certain faith. The people who wrote the Constitution believed in God. They may not have all been Christians, but they all believed in God. To say that they opposed religion is about as wrong as you can get. They opposed official government religions, and laws that limited religious freedom, but they did not oppose religion.

And yes, there are millions of Christians who's faith influences how they vote, but isn't that the point of democracy? In a democracy you don't impose the views of a minority on the majority that thinks differently. People will vote according to what they think is right, and that's how democracy works. If the people support Christianity, you can't just say "nope, I don't care what you all think, I'm going to say you can't have what you want, and we're going to do things my way."

As for this particular story, I think the school should do something for the kids who don't go to this bible study thing, but I don't think there's a problem with offering it. And I also have to wonder, did the kid really have a problem with the bible study, or did his mom just insist that he not go, and she's the one that's offended?

 

[dchester]

Whenever I read a story like this I want to ask the "religious" folks the following question.

"If you were a Christian, living in say Iran, and the Mullah said that the Koran would be taught in public school regardless of how you felt about it would you think that was fair or not?"

While I can't speak for anyone else, I'd have no problem with it. FWIW, I pay some significant money each year to send my son to a Catholic school instead of the public schools, and trust me, I'm not Catholic, (and since I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone who might be Catholic, I won't list the problems I have with the Catholic religion).

From my point of view, the people whining about the possibilty of themselves (or their kids) exposed to some religious speech, are the intolerant ones. That being said, I'd have no problem with Congress actually getting a set, and dealing with this whole issue and pass a law stating if we have "Separation of Church and State", and of course define what that actually means. Of course, as long as they ignore the whole issue, the court can make up whatever they want, and get away with it.
________
gm foods

 

[aloyouis]

Just like the tobacco companies....

"Get em while they're young and don't know any better."

...which is why Mass schools pound the kids with Darwinism and communism as soon as kindergarten!

 

[Alcoholic9*]

...which is why Mass schools pound the kids with Darwinism and communism as soon as kindergarten!

Well at least those things don't involve invisible beings that live in the sky or whatever.

 

[aloyouis]

Umm.... religion has caused more violence and suffering than all wars combined and multiplied by like 1000.

A9....I guess if you make me I can do the research to defend what I am about to say but that statement up above is completely ridiculous.

Oh wait......you mean to include thousands of years ago? Not relevant. With the exception of Radical Muslims, what religion causes so much suffering today? Indeed it is the radical leftists of the world that have done by far the MOST damage,carnage and murder........




Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69) 49,000,000 ("great leap forward" and "cultural revolution")
Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) 13,000,000 (the purges)
Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians WWII)
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000 Armenians
Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000
Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000
Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000
Suharto (East Timor, 1976-98) 600,000
Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) 600,000
Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1971) vs Bangladesh 500,000
Fumimaro Konoe (Japan, 1937-39) 500,000? (Chinese civilians)
Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) 400,000
Mullah Omar - Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000
Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000
Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000
Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire, 1965-97) ?
Charles Taylor (Liberia, 1989-1996) 220,000
Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone, 1991-2000) 200,000
Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia, 1992-96) 180,000
Michel Micombero (Burundi, 1972) 150,000
Hassan Turabi (Sudan, 1989-1999) 100,000
Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Centrafrica, 1966-79) ?
Richard Nixon (Vietnam, 1969-1974) 70,000 (vietnamese civilians)
Efrain Rios Montt (Guatemala, 1982-83) 70,000
Papa Doc Duvalier (Haiti, 1957-71) 60,000
Hissene Habre (Chad, 1982-1990) 40,000
Chiang Kai-shek (Taiwan, 1947) 30,000 (popular uprising)
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 (dissidents executed)
Francisco Franco (Spain) 30,000 (dissidents executed after the civil war)





Thats over 92 million people!!!! And that's just the last 100 years or so......


Indeed, it is religion that that sponsers much of the good that is done in the world today.

Of course, the ACLU is doing it's socialist best to wipe out religion in our country. A country founded on religion by men of religion.

 

[Mr NFLfan]

Let's spice this up a bit...

I'm not saying it's 100% applicable in all cases, but I do think there's a direct correlation between the removal of anything remotely religious from school, and the increase in violence in school, and kids behaviour in general.

I'm only 46, but when I was in school, it was no big deal to sing Christmas songs, etc. We even had Easter egg hunts, Halloween parties, etc. We didn't have to worry about being sued if we said the word God or prayer on school property.

And we also didn't have NEAR the drug problem we do today. We didn't have gangs. We didn't have to worry about school shootings.

I'm just saying...

Well Spice you want then spice you'll get. I grew up in Southern NH and attended a private Catholic school grades 1-8. When I attended my first day at the public high school I was amazed at what those kids got away with. At the Catholic school you got a smack up aside the head for just about any infraction from disobedience to not completeing an assignment or not doing your home work to forgetting to wear a tie to school. Those old cranky Nuns grabbed you by the hair or the ears even by the cheeks and they did this in front of the entire class. Its a wonder I'm not traumatized and even able to function in everyday life! lol I saw a marked difference in violence between the private school and the catholic school with the catholic school being more violent than any public school I've attended. With both parents having attended the same Catholic school I learned very quick that if you got a beating from a Nun that you never ever complain about it to mom or dad. Their theory was if the Nun hit you you did something wrong and you'd get another dose of punishment at home. I often wonder why a student hasn't gone back to that school with an assult rifle and arrainged for those frustrated old nuns to meet their maker. Less violence? Not in the Catholic school I was sentenced to for 8 miserable years. St Josephs School this ones for YOU

 

[aloyouis]

Demanding prayer in school is simply another shirking of parental responsibilities, in my opinion.

Where does the story say that prayer is demanded of the students?

 

[Steve-o]

Demanding prayer in school is simply another shirking of parental responsibilities, in my opinion.

Where does the story say that prayer is demanded of the students?

I don't mean demanded of the students. I mean demanding that we have it. Demanding that we have school-led prayer functions, and blaming the decay of America on the absence of prayer in the schools, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's a cop out.

Believe me, living in the Bible belt, you hear those words a lot.