Wes: No progress

[midgar8784]

Well my reasoning there is Wes dropped the ball so nothing else matters... True I have not taken the time to go back and read ALL his 40 million posts so I'm making a leap of faith here

I believe that only one person is going off the...wes dropped ball, thats why we lost...notion.

 

[The Hoodie]

Agreeing with posts from a few pages back from dchester and middie, there is a fairly good chance that the discussion is different if the play was converted for a first down but, if I haven't stated it enough, I'm not a member of the blaming Welker club and as middie said, no one really pays attention to the Hernandez drop, or that Deion Branch play the play before that or whatever and probably because the drop was so direct.

Also agreeing with Kraft here. Not sure what Welker was thinking when he said the contract talks were "worse", especially as a player who was disciplined for un Patriot-like behavior (Rex foot presser). Training camp and the preseason will be very telling because we'll be able to distinguish from the 12 or so WRs we have who will be able to be productive and if it's really necessary to extend Welker's contract.

 

[The Gr8est]

That's not just Kraft getting involved. It's Kraft calling him out.

And I don't know if I recall him ever doing that.


Cheers, BostonTim

That was my thought too, and I think it makes it more likely that 2012 will be Wes' last year as a Patriot.

Ball is in your court Wes, you need to decide soon which way it's going to be. The Pats won't offer much more than they have already, and they WILL move on if you insist.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Beaglebay]

He did? Well I would imagine he would not point the finger anywhere except at himself, thats kinda how he roles....kinda anti kobe if you will.

Not THAT Tommy, silly.

 

[midgar8784]

Not THAT Tommy, silly.

Well damn can we get some last names in here...

 

[dchester]

Well damn can we get some last names in here...

 

[MaineMan]

DIFFERENT PLAYERS, Tedy was an emotional player and it showed in his on the field persona, Mayo is similar to BB himself and lacks the ability to allow emotion to play a role...he is meticulous in his assignments where Tedy would break off if he had a feel.

Well, yes and no. I mean, yes, Mayo generally seems less emotional and instinctive than Bruschi. However, WRT "playmaking" . . .

If we're comparing Mayo 2011 (his 4th season) to the Bruschi of 2003 (his 8th year in the league and his 4th season with BB), the playmaking distinction is as stark as you describe it. But Bruschi was also, at that point, playing on a veteran defense. And, of course, he had to develop into that player who could successfully go beyond his assignments to make the big play on a regular basis - which really didn't start happening until his 6th or 7th year .

I'm not saying that Mayo WILL become a more instinctive/emotional player or even develop an equivalent "feel" for making the big play, just that I'd prefer to wait a couple more years while the defense matures into a more veteran unit around him before I give up hope.

 

[HSanders]

That's why I like Spikes & Mayo together. Mayo is more technical, Spikes is more instinctive/playmaking.
But who I really REALLY miss is Rodney. The secondary needs a guy like him. Badly.

 

[TommyD420]

That was my thought too, and I think it makes it more likely that 2012 will be Wes' last year as a Patriot.

Better to let him go one year too early, than one year too late. :shrug:

But who I really REALLY miss is Rodney. The secondary needs a guy like him. Badly.

Unfortunately, Hall of Fame Safeties don't grow on trees.

 

[MaineMan]

That's why I like Spikes & Mayo together. Mayo is more technical, Spikes is more instinctive/playmaking.
But who I really REALLY miss is Rodney. The secondary needs a guy like him. Badly.

Agree, on both counts.

Spikes and Mayo in the middle with Ninko at SOLB and Hightower at ROLB seems like a great 4-LB set to me.

On some level, Harrison's SS/LB role with the Pats is "unfillable", if only for the fact that he was already a highly-accomplished 9-year veteran when the Pats snagged him in 2003. If either Barrett or Tarpinian can contribute even 50% of what Harrison did in San Diego in his 1st season starting (1996, his 3rd year: 125 TT, 5 picks, a sack and a FF), that would be a huge plus.

 

[chevss454]

Agree, on both counts.

Spikes and Mayo in the middle with Ninko at SOLB and Hightower at ROLB seems like a great 4-LB set to me.

On some level, Harrison's SS/LB role with the Pats is "unfillable", if only for the fact that he was already a highly-accomplished 9-year veteran when the Pats snagged him in 2003. If either Barrett or Tarpinian can contribute even 50% of what Harrison did in San Diego in his 1st season starting (1996, his 3rd year: 125 TT, 5 picks, a sack and a FF), that would be a huge plus.

This has me giddy for 108 days from now to hurry up and get here.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Agree, on both counts.

Spikes and Mayo in the middle with Ninko at SOLB and Hightower at ROLB seems like a great 4-LB set to me.

On some level, Harrison's SS/LB role with the Pats is "unfillable", if only for the fact that he was already a highly-accomplished 9-year veteran when the Pats snagged him in 2003. If either Barrett or Tarpinian can contribute even 50% of what Harrison did in San Diego in his 1st season starting (1996, his 3rd year: 125 TT, 5 picks, a sack and a FF), that would be a huge plus.

This has me giddy for 108 days from now to hurry up and get here.

Just not sure we're gonna see alot of 3-4. Who are our legit 3-4 DE options?

 

[chevss454]

Just not sure we're gonna see alot of 3-4. Who are our legit 3-4 DE options?

Jones, Deaderick, Fanene, VW, Pryor, Harrison, Bequette. The alignment is only important to confuse the QB. Starting at 3/4 and changing to 4/3 is very easy with our front 7 guys.

 

[BostonTim]

Starting at 3/4 and changing to 4/3 is very easy with our front 7 guys.

The Amoeba defense.


Cheers, BostonTim

 

[spacecrime]

Ok... we'll put you down as a non Welker fan, you know, the guy who caught 122 passes last year, you also might recognize that number as the most catches caught by ANY receiver in the league. You're right he sucks.

He didn't say he hated Welker. he didn't say Wleker sucked.

He said Welker dropped a pass and that if he had caught the pass the Pats win the superbowl.

You can spin it all you want, and pretend people are saying things they are not, but the fact is: Welker dropped a pass and that if he had caught the pass the Pats win the superbowl.

The game could have gone either way a number of times but that doesn't make it untrue that had Welker caught that ball, the game is over.

The pass was on SC tonight and it was an easy grab. Hit the palms of BOTH his hands. Pure lose of focus/attention or a choke. Whatever. he didn't catch it.

 

[spacecrime]

Better to let him go one year too early, than one year too late. :shrug:

The $10 mil might be put to good use. WHo knows?

 

[grog]

Interesting take...

NFL Analysis: How Valuable is Wes Welker in the New England Patriots' Eyes?
Submitted by Extra Pine Tar on May 25, 2012
Swear at me all you want, or tell me I’m an idiot. It’s probably warranted. Yet, I promise you, if you look at the way the Patriots have won over the years, the rules they swear by and the general way in which they run their organization, Wes Welker is as expendable to them today as Matthew Slater would be if his contract was up.

“The Patriots Way” has its benefits. Winning regularly, for one, is a nice perk. Showing loyalty, and signing the players long term that got you to that point? Not so much. People always say that professional sports are a business, and there’s no team anywhere in the world that takes that as literally as the New England Patriots do.

Let’s look at the facts: Wes Welker has been the most prolific receiver in the NFL since he joined the Patriots in 2007. He’s been one of the best receivers in the league during that time, regardless of designation (outside, slot, whatever), and he’s also been one of the toughest. He came back from a torn ACL much faster than any human should, and he takes more hits than anybody his size ever should.

Without Wes Welker and his contributions, the Patriots wouldn’t have been to two Super Bowls since he’s been on the team, and they wouldn’t have been an upper-echelon team every year like they have been.

But the Pats have been here before. They aren’t particularly interested in the past. Regardless of someone’s track record, they’re expendable in Bill Belichick’s eyes.

The Patriots decided long ago that they needed the best at one position, and one position only. You can probably guess the one I’m talking about, right?

Quarterback.

That’s it.

Once it became apparent, somewhere around 2003 – with the team in its second Super Bowl in three years – that Tom Brady was destined to be one of the best quarterbacks in the game, he solidified his place as the only player in Belichick’s tenure to have actual job security. There are 53 players on the active roster during every game, and 52 of them are playing for their jobs at all times.

It’s just the way they do it. Did they show loyalty to Lawyer Milloy before the 2003 season? No, they cut him and he signed within the division. Keep in mind this is the same Lawyer Milloy that was hugging Belichick and his family after the Patriots beat the Rams in the Super Bowl in 2002. Nineteen months later, without any significant injury, he was out on the straight.

Ask Richard Seymour about security. After playing on all three championship teams, as well as the undefeated 2007 team and after making five consecutive Pro Bowls from 2002-06 and three first-team All-Pros while being considered the model end in a 3-4 defense, Seymour was shipped off to Oakland, the purgatory of the NFL, in 2009.

How about Randy Moss, the receiver who set the NFL touchdown mark in the 2007 season, and led the NFL in total touchdowns for a receiver during his three-year stint in New England? When he went crying for a long-term contract to the media, the Patriots traded him midway through the season.

Basically, the Pats said to those guys, “Thanks for being a part of something special. We couldn’t have done it without you. But now we can, so it’s time to go.”

There is nothing in the history of this franchise under Belichick’s guidance that would indicate that Welker is safe from a similar fate. Plus, he has some real negatives going for him.

First of all, he’s made these contract negotiations public, which is sort of like being in the Secret Service and tweeting where the president is at all times. Let’s just say it’s frowned upon.

Next, he’s 31 years old, which is young in normal professions, but isn’t quite the same in the NFL. Many career has ended well before 31 years old, and for a guy who relies on his quickness as much as anybody in the league, age and natural body deterioration has to be taken into account. Is it a problem right now? No, but if the Patriots pony up too many years in a deal, it could be a problem by the end of it, and the Pats are nothing if not risk-averse. They have no interest in overpaying or eating money if they aren’t going to get the production.

Welker has also already had one significant injury, when he tore his ACL and MCL in January, 2010. He came back in an amazingly short period of time and he’s been basically just as good as ever since then. But it still happened, and that knee is more vulnerable now than it was in 2007 or 2008. Again, it’s a risk-reward situation. The Patriots aren’t going to enjoy if they invest heavy dollars in a player who tears up his knee in year one of the deal.

Then there was 2011, when he decided to not act like a good little solider and he littered his press conference with what he thought were subtle references to Rex Ryan’s foot fetish. Instead, they were clear as day, and Belichick benched him for the first series of the game. The Pats went on to lose that game, and you’re crazy if you think that put legitimate strain on the relationship between Welker and Belichick. If you thought negotiating in the public was bad, making foot-fetish jokes at the expense of your opponent’s head coach just prior to an AFC Divisional Round playoff game is even worse.

Finally – and I’m not sure how much stock they put in this, but it’s worth mentioning – there was the drop in the Super Bowl in February. I can’t imagine the team judging a player who has been so consistent on just one play, but there is a huge emphasis on making plays in pressure situations. Watch the NFL Network any time Belichick is “miced up,” and you’ll start to mute the volume because of how many times he yells “situational football.” In the biggest situation of the year, needing basically a first down to win the Super Bowl, Wes Welker was the one guy who came up short.

All of those things - age, injury history, behavioral history and the Super Bowl - are factors when Belichick and his staff sit down and put a number on how much they think Welker is worth. Welker said that the Pats offered him less than the 2-year, $16 million offer they made him last year. If that’s true – and we have no reason to believe it’s not true – than the Patriots are clearly very, very lukewarm on the idea of giving Welker more than two years at any sort of significant rate.

He’s not getting Calvin Johnson money. Hell, he’s not even getting Pierre Garcon money. Not with the Patriots.

But, are the Patriots better with Welker on the team? Of course. He did have 112, 111, 123, 86 and 122 receptions the last five seasons. It didn’t happen by accident. It happened because the team recognized how well Welker’s set of skills – catching the ball away from his body, getting upfield quickly, making the first guy miss – fit perfectly into the offensive philosophy they were adopting.

The team wouldn’t have franchised Welker if they didn’t think that he was the best man for their No. 1 slot receiver job. They just don’t want to get carried away by assuming that he’s going to be the best man for that job in 2013, or in 2014.

The Patriots brought in Anthony Gonzalez – an oft-injured, but ideal slot receiver – in the off-season, and they still have Julian Edelman on the roster. They were preparing for a Welker holdout, and by the looks of it, they weren’t planning on budging one bit if it came to that. Instead, Welker signed his tender and took a leap of faith.

After he signed, he tweeted “Hopefully doing the right thing gets the right results.” Eh, maybe he hasn’t been paying attention.

The Patriots don’t care about the right thing. They don’t care about loyalty, and they don’t care about valuing players the same way the rest of the league does. While we all want to be rooting for the same guys year in and year out, and we get attached to the players, the Patriots give out long-term deals very rarely. Vince Wilfork, Logan Mankins and Jerod Mayo should all feel blessed. They each signed deals over the past few years to remain in New England for a while.

They’re the exception. Welker’s situation is much more the norm.

Put it this way: In 2008, Brady tore his ACL in the first game of the season, and the team still won 11 games with Matt Cassell at quarterback.

Like I said before, Brady is everything to this team. He’s the only non-expendable player. So if the Patriots can see their cornerstone go down and still win 11 games, what do you think they think they can do without Welker?

It’s not like they’re going to miss the playoffs if Wes Welker isn’t in the slot. Sorry, it’s the truth. I know it, you know it, and Bill Belichick certainly knows it.

It might seem harsh on the surface that the Patriots don’t value Welker the way that his production dictates he should be valued, but it’s a proven method.

We all know “The Patriot Way” is effective, but sometimes it leaves a trail of blood in its wake. That’s the price of being in the hunt every year.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/spor...aluable-wes-welker-new-england-patriots-eyes#

 

[HSanders]

I see his points and agree with a lot of them but....no way is he the same as Slater value wise. I'm coming from the opinion that WRs who fit this system as well as WW does are hard to come by and deserve to be retained at a small premium though. That said, I think they will be in good position to move on without him after this year and that's what led to what's probably more than they "wanted" to pay him this year with the FT. BB not only looks at absolute value but also REPLACEMENT value. THIS year, they have no replacement is what the FT is telling me. So he will "overpay" on absolute value this year.

My use of quotes is to signify what I think the PATS view is on those terms, not mine.

 

[chevss454]

Interesting take...

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/spor...aluable-wes-welker-new-england-patriots-eyes#

I think the author has been reading our posts.

One of the basic tenets of negotiating successfully is knowing your best alternatives to a negotiated settlement.

BB and Caserio know they could do a lot with the money WW is earning this year. Cheaper alternatives are already on the team and under contract. The Pats had the right to pull WW's tag at any time before he signed and I feel strongly that WW was feeling very insecure about that with all the WRs the Pats brought on board. $9,500,000.00 is a lot of money and fear of loss is the most important motivator there is. I love Welker and I'm glad he's on the team for a number of reasons, the primary reason being to keep Brady happy. But I also know that with a tweak here and there to scheme and personnel, WW's production could be accounted for in no time at all. There are always alternatives and in this case, the Pats had way more alternatives than Welker did.

 

[Beaglebay]

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/06/kraft_belichick.html

Kraft:
�Like so many other Patriots fans, Rodney Harrison will always be one of my favorite players. When he signed with the Patriots as a free agent in 2003, he did so with one goal in mind: to win Super Bowls. In each of his first two years, he not only led the defense in tackles, he led the team to consecutive 17 win seasons that culminated in Super Bowl championships. Those teams will be celebrated in New England for generations to come and I hope that Rodney will always be remembered for the many contributions he made to those championship teams. For the past six years, Rodney was a leader in the locker room and a tenacious defender on the field. He gave the Patriots, and the game of football, everything he had on every play, which earned the respect of Patriots fans everywhere. We look forward to bringing Rodney back to a game in the near future to honor him and to give our fans an opportunity to show him their appreciation.�
Belichick:
�Rodney Harrison is one of the best players I have ever coached. In the biggest games, in any situation and on a weekly basis, his production was phenomenal. Rodney is the best practice player I have seen in 35 years in the NFL, which is a testament to his exceptional passion for the game and his desire to sustain and improve his level of play. Regardless of his status on the team and in the league, Rodney�s approach to preparation spoke volumes about his devotion to the team and his ability to raise every player�s game. Rodney embodies all the attributes coaches seek and appreciate � toughness, competitiveness, leadership, selflessness, hard work, intensity, professionalism � and coming from Rodney, they are contagious. I am honored to have coached Rodney Harrison and am grateful for his significant impact on my career and the success of the New England Patriots.�




http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/08/belichick_on_br_7.html


FOXBOROUGH � Bill Belichick was emotional when speaking of Tedy Bruschi this morning, calling him the �perfect player.� At times, Belichick appeared as if he was choking up.
�I�ve had the privilege of coaching a lot of great players and a lot of great leaders in the National Football League, and I�ll just put Tedy up there with all of them, and above all of them. There is no player that epitomizes more of what I believe a player should be � on the field, off the field � in every situation,� Belichick said as he opened his remarks.




http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/06/belichick_troy.html

"Troy Brown, who hardly ever says a word, he just does his job � it doesn�t make any difference whether he�s covering Donald Driver on defense up at Green Bay, returning kicks for touchdowns against Pittsburgh in the AFC Championship game in 2001, or blocked field goals and lateraling for touchdowns in 2001, or catching passes from Tom Brady. He just goes out there and does his job. Of all the players I�ve had the privilege of coaching, he�d be the last guy to get up and talk and give a team speech, or that type of thing. That�s not his style, yet he�s a tremendous leader on the football team."


http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2011/08/bill_belichick_on_kevin_faulk.html

"I think the world of Kevin Faulk. He's been a very productive player for us, he's the ultimate team player, he takes great pride and professionalism in his job.
"He's a great example for all of us in terms of being a professional -- being team-oriented, and putting himself secondary to the team goals, and setting a great example, and doing everything he can to help the team win. I don't see how you can get a better example than that. He's along the lines of, you know, Troy Brown, Tedy Bruschi, Rodney Harrison, and many of the other players we've had like that. He's really at the top of that list.
"I think any player on the team -- or any coach on the team, for that matter -- that watches Kevin Faulk can see positives in Kevin and learn from it. He's an inspiration to all of us."






These guys are special players; BB knows it, Mr Kraft knows it, and we know it. I wouldn't put Welker in the same category with them. If not for speaking out about money, I think Vrabel would be among them; Willie too.



BB wants his players to immerse themselves in football. Thinking about (and more egregiously, talking publicly about) anything else is a selfish distraction from the job you are being paid to do.


I think BB/Mr Kraft's business acumen and team-building philosophies are exemplary. No guts, no glory.