Tom Brady/Tampa Off-season thread

[spacecrime]

I know, right? It serves its purpose, to keep the Brady nonsense out of the Patriots threads, which are so much better now.

It's like a sacrificial anode and I love having it.

 

[DeflateThis]

...someone somewhere said something uncomplimentary about Tom Brady and that cannot be allowed to stand.

Awesome. You lasted about 17 minutes and didn't even have time to change your forum ID.

That wasnt «someone somewhere». It was the exact someone claiming the team was stacked.

 

[Mazz22]

Brady was made fun of here and pretty much everywhere else for signing with Tampa. The narrative was that Arians system would be a horrible fit for him and Arians himself would be a huge down grade from Bill.

No one, absolutely no one had them making a deep playoff run. The Saints were picked to win the division which they did.

The thing that was so incredible is all those predictions looked spot on until December. Brady did struggle in the system at times, Arians was a bit of a buffoon, the pass defense was atrocious.
The Bucs were 7-5 heading into December and seemed destined for an early playoff exit.

But then the switch was flipped just like we saw so many times here. The offense jelled, the defense tightened and the attitude changed. Brady completely transformed them into believers in themselves. The players talked about how Brady's intensity went up as the games became bigger and he texted them about the game film he was watching and how they could beat their guys.

It truly was a Bradyesque run that we enjoyed for so many years here. It was extremely satisfying as a Brady fan to see him yet again defy expectations and father time and help deliver a Lombardi to the losingest franchise in NFL history. I really enjoyed how the owner, Licht and Arians effusively praised Brady for showing them how to win. But what I enjoyed most of all is Brady proved it was not some system or Bill that made him the GOAT. It was him.

 

[HSanders]

@Mazz22
i'm one of those who didn't think they'd win a sb,or that it was a great move for him to go there. i am pretty sure his options were limited. my main thought was probably that tb being on the downside of his career and arians being a buffoon was not a good mix .you're right, they looked shaky for awhile.
where i don't agree is your comment that tb is solely responsible for making himself the goat. he is largely in charge of that, but i don't think he would have had the career he did without being coached by bb.

 

[Roberto71]

@Mazz22
i'm one of those who didn't think they'd win a sb,or that it was a great move for him to go there. i am pretty sure his options were limited. my main thought was probably that tb being on the downside of his career and arians being a buffoon was not a good mix .you're right, they looked shaky for awhile.
where i don't agree is your comment that tb is solely responsible for making himself the goat. he is largely in charge of that, but i don't think he would have had the career he did without being coached by bb.

I mean the Patriots chose him when literally no other team wanted him. Let's be honest here, he's nothing without the Patriots.

 

[Mazz22]

@Mazz22
i'm one of those who didn't think they'd win a sb,or that it was a great move for him to go there. i am pretty sure his options were limited. my main thought was probably that tb being on the downside of his career and arians being a buffoon was not a good mix .you're right, they looked shaky for awhile.
where i don't agree is your comment that tb is solely responsible for making himself the goat. he is largely in charge of that, but i don't think he would have had the career he did without being coached by bb.

Bill of course was instrumental in Brady's development. No question. But when we are looking at the greatest player in NFL history, it transcends coaching and organization. Brady is a transformational player. We saw that in 2001 when he stepped on the field and took a 5-13 team and helped lead them to the chip.

His whole career has been defying expectations and what he showed in Tampa in year one with a franchise who most thought was a joke is that he would transform them too. It was eye opening I think even for his biggest fans to see him do in Tampa what he did here for 20 years.

 

[Mazz22]

I mean the Patriots chose him when literally no other team wanted him. Let's be honest here, he's nothing without the Patriots.

He was the 4th string Qb. The Patriots did not choose him to be anything but a camp arm. We were stacked at Qb but it only took him one year and 2 games to beat out them all. That was Brady doing that not the Patriots.

 

[HSanders]

Bill of course was instrumental in Brady's development. No question. But when we are looking at the greatest player in NFL history, it transcends coaching and organization. Brady is a transformational player. We saw that in 2001 when he stepped on the field and took a 5-13 team and helped lead them to the chip.

His whole career has been defying expectations and what he showed in Tampa in year one with a franchise who most thought was a joke is that he would transform them too. It was eye opening I think even for his biggest fans to see him do in Tampa what he did here for 20 years.

my point was more had he started in tampa, he wouldn't be the goat. i think he would have been good/great, but never reached the heights he has as far as his own performances.

 

[Mazz22]

my point was more had he started in tampa, he wouldn't be the goat. i think he would have been good/great, but never reached the heights he has as far as his own performances.

I used to think that but I don't think it is true anymore. The Pats were in terrible shape when he joined them. Bill was underperforming as a HC and on the hot seat in 2001 after starting out 0-2 after going 5-11 the year prior. Brady changed all that when he came on. And now we saw the same thing in Tampa 20 years later. I think Brady would have been great no matter where he went.

 

[mooseontheloose]

This argument makes no sense. You can't pretend Tom is the same player today as he was in 2000, and that he'd have won 7 SBs and been the GOAT even if he'd been picked by the Jets or Lions.

Tom has always had the right attitude and drive to be a champion, that is true. It's why he was able to elevate from 4th string and get his chance in the first place. He's also always been extremely coachable, which is why you saw him transform from a legit game manager to the stat monster he became.

But do you honestly think that would all happen without the Pats and BB? Brady didn't come out of college with an elite level set of physical skills. He wasn't destined for greatness. He had to work his ass off AND get coached up constantly. He even says so.

Over time Brady's game evolved and he became dominant as a QB and the embodiment of the Patriots Way but it's lazy to think he created it. That Way was clearly already being instilled by BB in the early years and TB became the flag carrier for it as all the other OG cast left the team.

I have no doubt that everything Tom learned absolutely allowed him to pick up and carry the slack for Arians and the rest of that losing organization. But Brady wasn't born the GOAT. He brought his GOAT attitude to a coach and organization that nurtured, developed and unleashed his full potential.

Brady was absolutely nothing without BB in the first part of his career. Of course by the time he left his importance and contributions were much higher, which we all saw first hand with Cam as his replacement. But that doesn't mean he didn't need BB or the Pats.

BB made Brady who he is today. Without BB there's a chance Brady never even makes an NFL roster. Once a starter, Brady's combination of relentless pursuit of perfection + BB allowed him to transform into a true stat monster while winning at a truly astonishing pace.

With the unique skillset and attitude of Tom, BB likely would have churned through a few other QBs and maybe had some success but obviously not 6 SBs worth of success. BB needed a player like Brady to mold, and even be probably didn't know his fill potential at first but it wasn'tike BB could have turned just any QB into the GOAT.

The idea that either of them "needed" the other more is stupid. It was the perfect storm. Neither of them would have had anywhere near the same level of success from 2001 - 2019 if Brady had been drafted elsewhere. Pretending that Brady winning with TB somehow diminishes the importance of BB is pretty ridiculous given how far Brady has come since 200

 

[Mazz22]

This argument makes no sense. You can't pretend Tom is the same player today as he was in 2000, and that he'd have won 7 SBs and been the GOAT even if he'd been picked by the Jets or Lions.

Tom has always had the right attitude and drive to be a champion, that is true. It's why he was able to elevate from 4th string and get his chance in the first place. He's also always been extremely coachable, which is why you saw him transform from a legit game manager to the stat monster he became.

But do you honestly think that would all happen without the Pats and BB? Brady didn't come out of college with an elite level set of physical skills. He wasn't destined for greatness. He had to work his ass off AND get coached up constantly. He even says so.

Over time Brady's game evolved and he became dominant as a QB and the embodiment of the Patriots Way but it's lazy to think he created it. That Way was clearly already being instilled by BB in the early years and TB became the flag carrier for it as all the other OG cast left the team.

I have no doubt that everything Tom learned absolutely allowed him to pick up and carry the slack for Arians and the rest of that losing organization. But Brady wasn't born the GOAT. He brought his GOAT attitude to a coach and organization that nurtured, developed and unleashed his full potential.

Brady was absolutely nothing without BB in the first part of his career. Of course by the time he left his importance and contributions were much higher, which we all saw first hand with Cam as his replacement. But that doesn't mean he didn't need BB or the Pats.

BB made Brady who he is today. Without BB there's a chance Brady never even makes an NFL roster. Once a starter, Brady's combination of relentless pursuit of perfection + BB allowed him to transform into a true stat monster while winning at a truly astonishing pace.

With the unique skillset and attitude of Tom, BB likely would have churned through a few other QBs and maybe had some success but obviously not 6 SBs worth of success. BB needed a player like Brady to mold, and even be probably didn't know his fill potential at first but it wasn'tike BB could have turned just any QB into the GOAT.

The idea that either of them "needed" the other more is stupid. It was the perfect storm. Neither of them would have had anywhere near the same level of success from 2001 - 2019 if Brady had been drafted elsewhere. Pretending that Brady winning with TB somehow diminishes the importance of BB is pretty ridiculous given how far Brady has come since 200

Well articulated post but I disagree. The traits that are in Brady were there in 2001. We saw them. Bill helped develop his football acumen for sure but whose to say another coach would not have done the same? I think Brady would have excelled just as much with a Coughlin or an offensive minded HC like Reid.

But I think the bigger question is how much would have Brady won with a different GM. That is the money question. I think if Brady had a GM like Licht or Ballard you never see the 10 year drought in his prime that you saw with Bill. Bill has some HUGE blind spots when it comes to offense which really cost Brady in years where we could have won if we had more than just a slot receiver and TE as weapons.

It is fun to debate and I hope this discussion can stay good natured. I know you are always a top poster but I just say that for others so we can keep things on the level.

 

[PatsFan09]

...someone somewhere said something uncomplimentary about Tom Brady and that cannot be allowed to stand.

Awesome. You lasted about 17 minutes and didn't even have time to change your forum ID.

Are we at all surprised?

I’m sure he has already created a 4th handle.
The guy has the willpower of a gnat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[shirtsleeve]

Well articulated post but I disagree. The traits that are in Brady were there in 2001. We saw them. Bill helped develop his football acumen for sure but whose to say another coach would not have done the same? I think Brady would have excelled just as much with a Coughlin or an offensive minded HC like Reid.

But I think the bigger question is how much would have Brady won with a different GM. That is the money question. I think if Brady had a GM like Licht or Ballard you never see the 10 year drought in his prime that you saw with Bill. Bill has some HUGE blind spots when it comes to offense which really cost Brady in years where we could have won if we had more than just a slot receiver and TE as weapons.

It is fun to debate and I hope this discussion can stay good natured. I know you are always a top poster but I just say that for others so we can keep things on the level.

Moss, Ocho, etc. were brought in. Just sayin'

 

[PatsFan09]

He was the 4th string Qb. The Patriots did not choose him to be anything but a camp arm. We were stacked at Qb but it only took him one year and 2 games to beat out them all. That was Brady doing that not the Patriots.

Stacked at QB?
Maybe # -wise, but not talent wise.
That’s why Brady was able to leapfrog so quickly to #2, then #1.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

You said to, so I looked through your posts. Between November 2019 and February 2020 you...
- Quoted a post about throwback uniforms (the bucs were on the list); quoted something about Kaepernick's workout (the bucs were on the list); and quoted a post about the KC / Titans game (the Bucs were anecdotally referenced). That was it. At no point that I can find did you ever say they were loaded, in any context, within that time period before Brady was on the scene. Possible I missed something but no, I looked through your posts, I did not find them.

They're out there...I remember saying it.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

I used to think that but I don't think it is true anymore. The Pats were in terrible shape when he joined them. Bill was underperforming as a HC and on the hot seat in 2001 after starting out 0-2 after going 5-11 the year prior. Brady changed all that when he came on. And now we saw the same thing in Tampa 20 years later. I think Brady would have been great no matter where he went.

If BB was really the oaf that you claim, he would have stuck with Bledsoe...and Brady would have been selling for big pharma instead. BB gave Brady the chance to succeed. Bottom line.

 

[Mazz22]

If BB was really the oaf that you claim, he would have stuck with Bledsoe...and Brady would have been selling for big pharma instead. BB gave Brady the chance to succeed. Bottom line.

Nice strawman. Where did I call Bill an oaf? Bill did not stick with Bledsoe because Bledsoe was awful in his system AND Brady outplayed him. BB did not give Brady the chance to succeed, Brady earned that chance. Bill has said that repeatedly. I assure you that Bill did not go into the 2000 camp looking to give Brady a chance at anything except holding a clip board and being a camp arm. It was Brady that took command of the scout team and elevated himself from 4th string to back-up in one year and then to starter when the 2001 season began.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

Nice strawman. Where did I call Bill an oaf? Bill did not stick with Bledsoe because Bledsoe was awful in his system AND Brady outplayed him. BB did not give Brady the chance to succeed, Brady earned that chance. Bill has said that repeatedly. I assure you that Bill did not go into the 2000 camp looking to give Brady a chance at anything except holding a clip board and being a camp arm. It was Brady that took command of the scout team and elevated himself from 4th string to back-up in one year and then to starter when the 2001 season began.

BB gave Brady his chance, anything said otherwise is false.

 

[Mazz22]

BB gave Brady his chance, anything said otherwise is false.

He drafted him so yes, a chance. But Brady is the one that earned everything he ever got from one of the toughest coaches to ever coach. And whose to say Brady does not get drafted in the 7th round or gets signed as an undrafted FA? Given his senior year at Michigan, he for sure would have been signed by some team as an UFA and got his chance then. It's not like being 4th on a depth chart with the first overall pick in Bledsoe, Huard who was one of the best back ups in the league at the time and Bishop, our young developing QB was an ideal spot for Brady to even make the team much less be its starter a year later.