HBO's "Game of Thrones"

Also, not sure Brienne actually killed Stannis.

Yep, I'm not buying that one. They didn't show it therefore it didn't happen as far as I'm concerned. I have a theory on what actually happened and hope it means a character who they said wouldn't be in the show is in fact going to be in the show. I guess we'll find out in 10 months. nutpunch
 
I don't have the article now but I remember reading a literary review that basically called his commitment to character deaths a major limitation in his writing.

Think about it - has he ever ended a character arc without death? Every single season we have characters rise from being background characters or emerge as new players entirely. At some point they start to become more relevant than before, have some important scenes and/or impact on the story and in basically every single case the end of their arc is death. They die to end whatever story arc they are involved in so Martin can move on to the next and begin the cycle again.

Sure. There are plenty of characters that aren't dead yet, although I can't be sure what an arc means to you. Cercei sure had an arc last night as she invented the walk of shame. Will that change her? Who knows? Still, I get your larger point and agree. The death is egregious. When Jamie had his touching moment with his daughter I knew she was a goner and three seconds later the blood pours out of her nostrils. It's excessive, sure. I'm angry that Jon Snow got whacked. He was my favorite character in the show and did not deserve to die. Same thing with Arya and the weird faceless God thing. She killed a guy that deserved to die and she was at least blinded and possibly worse. If there is a point to all that then I'm not sure what it is. Maybe that religion makes no fvcking sense.

Martin drops the hammer without regard to what we want to happen or think ought to happen, but he does mix it up with redemptive story arcs once in a while. Sam is an example of that. The fat, nerdy kid who killed a White Walker and even got laid. Life in the 7 kingdoms is brutal, for sure, but occasionally good shit happens for a while.


Apparently there are quotes out there from him that make it apparent he actually kills these characters on a whim - they aren't long-planned parts of the story. He basically turns focus to a character but then is so committed to the idea of not letting a true hero/protagonist emerge that once a character becomes 'bigger' than his/her own story, it's time to die. Wish I could find the article.

I'm not saying Martin is the worst writer in history, but I think his strength is the world he's created. It seems clear to me that his ability to manage these ridiculous number of characters and plots is becoming problematic, and his lack of range in narrative ability limits what he does with his characters. That doesn't mean the content can't be interesting, but it is why I just assume he either won't be able to finish the series before he dies or, if he does, it'll just be mass orgy of death... if he can't end single arcs without death, I'm not sure how he'll manage to end numerous all at the same time without death.

Those are some good points. Nobody knows how it will all end, but if logic dictates that Denaerys will end up ruling Westeros and her dragons will melt all the dead bad guys and save the world then we can be pretty sure that Martin will have other ideas because that would be too predictable and satisfying.

One of my major beefs with Martin is that he has too many characters to keep them all straight and too many plot lines to the point where it is a chore to keep it all straight. Some people love the complexity but I find it tiresome and self-indulgent on his part.

When I was a little schoolkid I was taught that if you were assigned a creative writing project then you shouldn't try to tackle "The Children of the World" and would be better off with "What the Children of Holland Do for Fun".

Martin would definitely do the first one. That's what GOT is.

I admit that he's a flawed writer, but I'm just trying to point out that he doesn't completely suck as seems to be a popular theme on these pages and elsewhere lately. He steals diamonds, but gives you back some gold.
 
I think Martin lost control of his plot when he decided to go beyond a trilogy. He expanded everything in all these different directions and was left with "Shit what do I do now?" He needs to kill people off to bring the plot back into a manageable level.

That said the show has killed off a ton of characters who are still kicking in the books.

Barristan Selmy
Myrcella Baratheon
Mance Rayder
Stannis and the rest of his family
Jojen Reed
Hizdahr Zo Loraq
Meryn Trant (although his death in the show was sweet)

Since I've invested a fair amount of time in the books I will wait to see what Martin's final vision is before passing judgement, but the shit head better start writing before he keels over, he's not the most healthy looking individual.
 
I think Martin lost control of his plot when he decided to go beyond a trilogy. He expanded everything in all these different directions and was left with "Shit what do I do now?" He needs to kill people off to bring the plot back into a manageable level.

That said the show has killed off a ton of characters who are still kicking in the books.

Barristan Selmy
Myrcella Baratheon
Mance Rayder
Stannis and the rest of his family
Jojen Reed
Hizdahr Zo Loraq
Meryn Trant (although his death in the show was sweet)

Since I've invested a fair amount of time in the books I will wait to see what Martin's final vision is before passing judgement, but the shit head better start writing before he keels over, he's not the most healthy looking individual.
 
Ya, he doesn't suck, but the notion that GoT is is anyway a literary accomplishment (beyond the grandiose world) is laughable.

I complete agree that Martin's scope is or probably will be his downfall. I can't stand him as a person, mostly because unlike Rowling who at least remained somewhat humble and took her fame in stride, Martin comes off like a giant ****ing douche who thinks the world should bow down in honor of his literary masterpiece.

This is sort of what I'm getting at, although I wish I could find the original review (written by an English professor), which was much more comprehensive:

I keep hearing how this series is a “breath of fresh air” where Martin isn’t afraid to kill off his main characters and that in “real life”, the good guys don’t always win etc etc. This is true. In real life, the bad guys win some and the good guys win some. Except that in Martin’s world, the good guys never win. Character after character bites the dust without gaining a victory. Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Bran…they all get shitty deals. All of them without exception betrayed. Even our darling Arya gets royally screwed.

And the baddies? While some shit happens to them, they’re essentially self goals. Joffrey gets his comeuppance not at the hands of any hero, but from within his own side. Cersei self destructs. Tywin gets it in the gut from his own son. In other words, revenge is tragically missing from the entire Game of Thrones series. All the good guys (and wolves too!) die horrible and humiliating deaths and the bad guys essentially slip down some stairs and break their neck. Like I said in “real life”, both goodies and baddies will have victories. But Martin is just a sadist.

I get the feeling that whenever Martin feels like his plot is losing its way or is in danger of being resolved, he just sits down and thinks “Hmm..this can’t happen. Let’s kill someone!” In other words, he uses the death of his characters as a substitute for plot development and for sheer shock value hoping that others will laud him for being “gritty” and “real”.

I wouldn’t mind Martin polishing off his characters if he comes up with new ones at the same rate with which they exit the stage. But he doesn’t. Instead, he gives us lame creatures like Davos who no one really cares for. And then he kills him too! So who the hell is left? Brienne?

So while the initial books were riveting for the sole reason that tragedy and betrayal abound, Martin pays the price for his carelessness by not having a plot to carry the story forward. No wonder he took five years to come out with “Dance with Dragons” and openly admitted that he was working on other stuff in the meantime. He didn’t know what to do with the story! He’d killed off or crippled every single person of interest to us on Westeros so what more was left?

Also, that scene with Cercei was way too drawn out and a perfectly example of Martin's ****ed up view of women/sex. I know it's not a popular opinion among males in my age group, but there are times when I'm actually disgusted by how he writes his female characters and how disturbing sexual interactions appear all too normal in his world. My assumption is Martin was a 40 year old virgin who never enjoyed a healthy sex life, because sex in his world reads like it was written based on episodes of porn fantasies. And the fact that a few powerful women exist (most of whom have been sexually exploited at some point) does not change this fact.
 
Ya, he doesn't suck, but the notion that GoT is in any way a literary accomplishment (beyond the grandiose world) is laughable.

I completely agree that Martin's scope is or probably will be his downfall. I can't stand him as a person, mostly because unlike Rowling who at least remained somewhat humble and took her fame in stride, Martin comes off like a giant ****ing douche who thinks the world should bow down in honor of his literary masterpiece. But his insistence on appearing complex as a writer has turned this story into a bit of a mess.

This is sort of what I'm getting at, although I wish I could find the original review (written by an English professor), which was much more comprehensive:

I keep hearing how this series is a “breath of fresh air” where Martin isn’t afraid to kill off his main characters and that in “real life”, the good guys don’t always win etc etc. This is true. In real life, the bad guys win some and the good guys win some. Except that in Martin’s world, the good guys never win. Character after character bites the dust without gaining a victory. Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Bran…they all get shitty deals. All of them without exception betrayed. Even our darling Arya gets royally screwed.

And the baddies? While some shit happens to them, they’re essentially self goals. Joffrey gets his comeuppance not at the hands of any hero, but from within his own side. Cersei self destructs. Tywin gets it in the gut from his own son. In other words, revenge is tragically missing from the entire Game of Thrones series. All the good guys (and wolves too!) die horrible and humiliating deaths and the bad guys essentially slip down some stairs and break their neck. Like I said in “real life”, both goodies and baddies will have victories. But Martin is just a sadist.

I get the feeling that whenever Martin feels like his plot is losing its way or is in danger of being resolved, he just sits down and thinks “Hmm..this can’t happen. Let’s kill someone!” In other words, he uses the death of his characters as a substitute for plot development and for sheer shock value hoping that others will laud him for being “gritty” and “real”.

I wouldn’t mind Martin polishing off his characters if he comes up with new ones at the same rate with which they exit the stage. But he doesn’t. Instead, he gives us lame creatures like Davos who no one really cares for. And then he kills him too! So who the hell is left? Brienne?

So while the initial books were riveting for the sole reason that tragedy and betrayal abound, Martin pays the price for his carelessness by not having a plot to carry the story forward. No wonder he took five years to come out with “Dance with Dragons” and openly admitted that he was working on other stuff in the meantime. He didn’t know what to do with the story! He’d killed off or crippled every single person of interest to us on Westeros so what more was left?

Also, that scene with Cercei was way too drawn out and a perfect example of Martin's ****ed up view of women/sex. I know it's not a popular opinion among males in my age group, but there are times when I'm actually disgusted by how he writes his female characters and how disturbing sexual interactions appear all too normal in his world. My assumption is Martin was a 40 year old virgin who never enjoyed a healthy sex life, because sex in his world reads like it was written based on episodes of porn fantasies. And the fact that a few powerful women exist (most of whom have been sexually exploited at some point) does not change this fact.
 
For those having issues with the number of characters, the number of characters being killed, etc. it is worth noting that the conflict in GoT is based on England's War of the Roses.

From Wiki

Summary of events

Henry of Bolingbroke had established the House of Lancaster on the throne in 1399 when he deposed his cousin Richard II and was crowned as Henry IV. Bolingbroke's son Henry V maintained the family's hold on the crown, but when Henry V died in 1422, his heir was the infant Henry VI. The Lancastrian claim to the throne descended from John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster, the third surviving son of Edward III. Henry VI's right to the crown was challenged by Richard, Duke of York, who could claim descent from Edward's second and fourth surviving sons, Lionel of Antwerp and Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York. Richard of York, who had held several important offices of state, quarrelled with prominent Lancastrians at court and with Henry VI's queen, Margaret of Anjou.

Although armed clashes had occurred previously between supporters of York and Lancaster, the first open fighting broke out in 1455 at the First Battle of St Albans. Several prominent Lancastrians died, but their heirs continued a deadly feud with Richard. Although peace was temporarily restored, the Lancastrians were inspired by Margaret of Anjou to contest York's influence. Fighting resumed more violently in 1459. York and his supporters were forced to flee the country, but one of his most prominent supporters, the Earl of Warwick, invaded England from Calais and captured Henry at the Battle of Northampton.

York returned to the country and became Protector of England, but was dissuaded from claiming the throne. Margaret and the irreconcilable Lancastrian nobles gathered their army in the north of England, and when York moved north to suppress them, he and his second son Edmund were killed at the Battle of Wakefield in December 1460. The Lancastrian army advanced south and released Henry at the Second Battle of St Albans, but failed to occupy London, and subsequently retreated to the north. York's eldest son, Edward, Earl of March, was proclaimed King Edward IV. He gathered the Yorkist armies and won a crushing victory at the Battle of Towton in March 1461.

After Lancastrian revolts in the north were suppressed in 1464 and Henry was captured once again, Edward fell out with his chief supporter and advisor, the Earl of Warwick (known as the "Kingmaker"), and also alienated many friends and even family members by favouring the family of his queen, Elizabeth Woodville, whom he had married in secret. Warwick tried first to supplant Edward with his younger brother George, Duke of Clarence, and then to restore Henry VI to the throne. This resulted in two years of rapid changes of fortune, before Edward IV once again won complete victories at Barnet (April 1471), where Warwick was killed, and Tewkesbury (May 1471) where the Lancastrian heir, Edward, Prince of Wales, was executed after the battle. Henry was murdered in the Tower of London several days later, ending the direct Lancastrian line of succession.

A period of comparative peace followed, but King Edward died unexpectedly in 1483. His surviving brother, Richard of Gloucester, first moved to prevent the unpopular Woodville family of Edward's widow from participating in the government during the minority of Edward's son, Edward V, and then seized the throne for himself, using the suspect legitimacy of Edward IV's marriage as pretext. Henry Tudor, a distant relative of the Lancastrian kings who had inherited their claim, defeated Richard at Bosworth in 1485. He was crowned Henry VII, and married Elizabeth of York, daughter of Edward IV, to unite and reconcile the two houses.

Yorkist revolts, directed by John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln and others, flared up in 1487 under the banner of the pretender Lambert Simnel—who claimed he was Edward, Earl of Warwick (son of George of Clarence), resulting in the last pitched battles. Though most surviving descendants of Richard of York were imprisoned, sporadic rebellions continued until 1497, when Perkin Warbeck, who claimed he was the younger brother of Edward V, one of the two disappeared Princes in the Tower, was imprisoned and later executed.

So there's a boatload of characters involved and most of them die.

I'm not saying that there are no issues with Martin's writing, but I can understand that if someone is trying to mirror the War of the Roses, one would have a large number of characters and many of them would be killed while vying for power.

Regarding the final episode

In no particular order


  • There are likely a host of fangirls crying their hearts out over the death of Jon Snow.
  • The life expectancy of the High Sparrow and the crone who cried "shame" next season will make a mayfly look like Methuselah. Methinks Clegane will go biblical on their posteriors.
  • As far as resolving the war with the White Walkers, there's a huge wild card yet to be played. Bran.
  • If I had to bet on who marries Khaleesi, I'd put my money on Bran.
  • I thought the timing of the candle in the broken tower was pathetic. 15seconds after Brienne looks away? Really?
  • I wonder if Bronn will bring in Inspector Reed and Captain Jackson to help solve the murder of Myrcella
  • Just how deep was that snow drift that Sansa and Reek jumped into?
 
For those having issues with the number of characters, the number of characters being killed, etc. it is worth noting that the conflict in GoT is based on England's War of the Roses.

From Wiki



So there's a boatload of characters involved and most of them die.

[/LIST]

Many of them died in combat or as a direct result of war, or from something unexpected/natural.

In GoT people die from random shit whenever it becomes convenient for Martin. That is the issue. It's almost like he tries too hard to underscore the notion that 'death is random' and it begins to lose all meaning. Some deaths are fine, but others feel forced in an attempt to artificially resolve a problem with the plot or provide some type of shock factor. I don't care about characters dying, but I find the GoT approach to be problematic at times.

I don't really care that Snow died, but again felt like it wasn't a great way to end his story. Spend all this time building up what he could do as Commander and then he's killed by his own men. Exciting. Also, it was a dead ****ing giveaway when the kid came in with the line about the uncle. Just like the deer figurine scene with Stannis' daughter was a giveaway for her death. On that note, I like how just a few episodes back Stannis said if he dies he wanted his daughter to be Queen and then he kills her almost right after. I mean, who the **** wrote that script?
 
Mortal lock of the century is Jon getting revived Thoros of Myr style.

It is very convenient that a blood magic priestess showed up just in time for Jon's blood to be spilled.... blood that was very much the focus of that last camera shot. I read somewhere that people are expecting him back because the contracts for the cast leaked (or are public anyway if you know where to look or something) and Kit Harrington was contracted for seasons 6 & 7. Kit denied the rumor publicly, but there's definitely smoke there.


In other news - some characters who were built up a little earlier in the series that we haven't heard from in awhile that could really make waves by showing up:

- Ricon Stark and his wildling babysitter. The kid must be a teenager by now, I think he should be about the same age as Marcella, no? He's got to be about ready to start building his lost kingdom, Khaleesi style. It has bothered me that we get to follow so many different characters on their personal stories, but that really major one is left out. It feels almost too convenient to me, like he's being saved for some Deus Ex Machina gimmik.

Book readers, do you guys have any more info on Ricon than show watchers do?

- Ghendry. He seemed like kind of a biggish deal at the time, but they just dumped him off at the coast off King's Landing and we haven't heard a peep from him since.

- Dire Wolves. How many are left alive? Not sure. But they've gotta serve some purpose.

- Benjan. It does feel like he might still come back and be important.
 
Apparently following the episode Kit confirmed he will not be returning. I didn't watch, but the post-episode recap also seemed to imply as much. So who knows?
 
Apparently following the episode Kit confirmed he will not be returning. I didn't watch, but the post-episode recap also seemed to imply as much. So who knows?

There's also a report out that it was leaked that he has already signed on for Season 7. I'm sure he's just trying to keep things under wraps. And by not returning, he could have meant as Jon Snow.
 
There's also a report out that it was leaked that he has already signed on for Season 7. I'm sure he's just trying to keep things under wraps. And by not returning, he could have meant as Jon Snow.

That's true. Will have to wait and see I guess.
 
Many of them died in combat or as a direct result of war, or from something unexpected/natural.

In GoT people die from random shit whenever it becomes convenient for Martin. That is the issue. It's almost like he tries too hard to underscore the notion that 'death is random' and it begins to lose all meaning. Some deaths are fine, but others feel forced in an attempt to artificially resolve a problem with the plot or provide some type of shock factor. I don't care about characters dying, but I find the GoT approach to be problematic at times.

I don't really care that Snow died, but again felt like it wasn't a great way to end his story. Spend all this time building up what he could do as Commander and then he's killed by his own men. Exciting. Also, it was a dead ****ing giveaway when the kid came in with the line about the uncle. Just like the deer figurine scene with Stannis' daughter was a giveaway for her death. On that note, I like how just a few episodes back Stannis said if he dies he wanted his daughter to be Queen and then he kills her almost right after. I mean, who the **** wrote that script?

OK, maybe I wasn't clear.

You said the following.

...

Think about it - has he ever ended a character arc without death? Every single season we have characters rise from being background characters or emerge as new players entirely. At some point they start to become more relevant than before, have some important scenes and/or impact on the story and in basically every single case the end of their arc is death. They die to end whatever story arc they are involved in so Martin can move on to the next and begin the cycle again.

...

I'm not saying Martin is the worst writer in history, but I think his strength is the world he's created. It seems clear to me that his ability to manage these ridiculous number of characters and plots is becoming problematic, and his lack of range in narrative ability limits what he does with his characters. That doesn't mean the content can't be interesting, but it is why I just assume he either won't be able to finish the series before he dies or, if he does, it'll just be mass orgy of death... if he can't end single arcs without death, I'm not sure how he'll manage to end numerous all at the same time without death.

My argument is not with his execution as a writer, but your suggestion as to his motivation.

If one was to write a history of the War of the Roses, then it would most certainly include many entries that could be described as follows.

we have characters rise from being background characters or emerge as new players entirely. At some point they start to become more relevant than before, have some important scenes and/or impact on the story and in basically every single case the end of their arc is death​

It would also be described as follows.

ridiculous number of characters and plots​

All I'm saying, is that if one is to write a fantasy novel that is loosely based on the WotR, then those two characteristics are inherent in such a story.

I am not suggesting that Martin is doing a "fabulous" job of writing such a story.

I am simply calling into question your suggestion as to his motives for the "orgy of death", the rise from obscurity - play a role - and then die, and massive number of characters.

IMHO, all of these things are a given if one is basing the story on the WotR.

Now to be clear, some of my attitude about the WotR has a lot to do with playing the Avalon Hill Board game "Kingmaker" very much in the before time at school.

The seven player games we played as part of the gaming club was some of the most fun gaming experiences I ever had.

Forming alliances and knowing when to put the knife in the back were the keys to winning in such a multi-player game.

Much of the game play involved getting cards with certain nobles and assets that you could use in battles and to gain influence. So if one was to write a story based on any of those games we played, then the nobles on those cards most certainly followed the "rise from obscurity - play your role - then die" model.

Of course, it also pisses me off that I didn't make the connection when I read the books back in the '90's :banghead:

So to be clear, I agree that Martin is not executing the story well, but I think that he's simply trying to fit the WotR mold.
 
OPT I don't disagree with his original intent. I suppose what I'm saying is that the entire thing feels manufactured, which it obviously is. This is not a historical recollection of the WotR, and he's not fooling anyone IMO. What I mean is that if you go into your project believing that people act in a particular fashion (ie. greed, backstabbing, etc.) and that death is an inherently random and constant occurrence, then the longer your series runs the more likely those manufactured notions will become tired and played out.

The WotR was a real event with real people who acted both logically and illogically. Some things were predictable and others weren't, but it would have been very difficult to map out that entire conflict and every odd twist and turn from afar. In real life people die, perhaps with no warning and/or for no good reason, and their deaths don't further plots because it isn't fiction. Martin's approach keeps all characters at risk, which really stood out early on, but I feel like it's just become a game at this point. Is there a calculated end game to his new characters and/or the rise of old characters, other than to hold them in reserve for yet another so-called 'realistic, random' death?

Historical fiction on a grand scale is not impossible, but I just don't feel like Martin has done a great job as the size of his story has expanded.
 
OPT I don't disagree with his original intent. I suppose what I'm saying is that the entire thing feels manufactured, which it obviously is. This is not a historical recollection of the WotR, and he's not fooling anyone IMO. What I mean is that if you go into your project believing that people act in a particular fashion (ie. greed, backstabbing, etc.) and that death is an inherently random and constant occurrence, then the longer your series runs the more likely those manufactured notions will become tired and played out.

The WotR was a real event with real people who acted both logically and illogically. Some things were predictable and others weren't, but it would have been very difficult to map out that entire conflict and every odd twist and turn from afar. In real life people die, perhaps with no warning and/or for no good reason, and their deaths don't further plots because it isn't fiction. Martin's approach keeps all characters at risk, which really stood out early on, but I feel like it's just become a game at this point. Is there a calculated end game to his new characters and/or the rise of old characters, other than to hold them in reserve for yet another so-called 'realistic, random' death?

Historical fiction on a grand scale is not impossible, but I just don't feel like Martin has done a great job as the size of his story has expanded.
 
Has anyone considered that Snow's return could be as a White Walker?

If we're looking for resurrection then that would be one avenue that would present some interesting possibilities such as a Sam the Slayer vs. WW Snow "reunion" or Snow leading an army of the dead to take Winterfell and perhaps make that his HQ for a while.

Some irony in that concept.
 
Has anyone considered that Snow's return could be as a White Walker?

If we're looking for resurrection then that would be one avenue that would present some interesting possibilities such as a Sam the Slayer vs. WW Snow "reunion" or Snow leading an army of the dead to take Winterfell and perhaps make that his HQ for a while.

Some irony in that concept.

This is the most popular theory and the one that makes the most sense given the way the season ended with Melisandre arriving at Castle Black just before Jon Snow was murdered.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Azor_Ahai
 
When I read the part in the books with Snow being stabbed, I immediately thought he would warg into Ghost (the last thing he says going down is Ghost) but with all the changes in the show, I have no idea what they will do.
 
This is the most popular theory and the one that makes the most sense given the way the season ended with Melisandre arriving at Castle Black just before Jon Snow was murdered.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Azor_Ahai

Shit. And here I thought it was an orginal concept. :shrug:

Thanks, though. That proves that the show will come up with something else.

One thing regarding Melisandre that confused me a bit was that I thought that it was she that was the "shadow" (wearing Stannis' face) that killed Renly Baratheon-- yet Stannis admitted to it when accused.

Did I just remember it wrong?

And when she skipped town why would she go north to the Wall? Not like she had a lot of fans there.
 
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