Mac Jones Is Our QB1

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Hawg73 said:
Hmmmmm....so......what could the opponents possibly be focusing in on to tell them what our defensive play calls are?

Hot dog roll tongue means man coverage and surfboard tongue is zone. That's the surfboard, so call a seam route.
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I'd bet Ryan Wendell had a lot to do with the Bills knowing the offensive play calls, line calls and defensive play calls. He practiced against our D for 8 years.

The Colts?
Ray Ventrone, Mike Groh and Frank Reich know a lot about our team.

Ventrone played for us.
Mike's dad, Al Groh, worked for BB in Cleveland and Parcells at the NYG then with BB again as DC on the Pats. Mike coached for his dad at Virginia, Saban at Bama and then as Offensive Assistant for Reich at Philly when the Eagles beat us in the SB.
Frank Reich himself spent 10 yrs on the Bills and 1 yr on the Jets as a player then was an offensive assistant coach and QB coach for Tony Dungy & Jim Caldwell on the Colts during the height of the Brady/Manning rivalry. They know a lot about BB, the language, his tendencies and formations as predictors of what's coming.

All of which brings me to something I've been thinking about. The Pats should make a bid for Jacoby Brissett in 2022 FA as a backup QB. He knows all about the Colts and this year he's learning about the Dolphins. He'd be a worthy backup and he'd bring a wealth of intel on 2 worthy competitors. Then go after someone on the Bills. Inside knowledge is valuable.
 
Hawg73 said:
For whatever reason (sorry if I'm rambling here) Jones hasn't been driving the ball as well as he was around mid-season (I doubt it's the cold weather) and he may be somewhat at the saturation point mentally, as well. He really looked down in the post-game presser and here's hoping he can bounce back and throw some dimes down the backstretch.
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Agree 100 percent.
 
Hawg73 said:
I think he can be much better, but after watching Lazar's half-hour breakdown I think what we witnessed last Sunday was a combination of things, including a great game plan by Leslie Frazier that
seemed to anticipate everything we did, great execution by their coverage guys, particularly their safeties, and getting behind the 8 ball on the scoreboard forcing us to get away from the running game which was missing Mondre and with a limited Harris.

Those were some things we can improve upon short-term, but McDaniels has got to get away from the middle and that's where it gets complicated. We still don't have top-shelf threats outside the hashes and Lazar questions whether Mac has the arm strength necessary, which I disagree with because I have SEEN him do it plenty of times.

For whatever reason (sorry if I'm rambling here) Jones hasn't been driving the ball as well as he was around mid-season (I doubt it's the cold weather) and he may be somewhat at the saturation point mentally, as well. He really looked down in the post-game presser and here's hoping he can bounce back and throw some dimes down the backstretch.
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This reminds me a bit of Steve Burton on Patriots All access last night: "All QBs have bad games, and Jones is still a rookie, but has he regressed?" One man's regression is another man's slump, I suppose.

Foxx and friends think he's hit his ceiling. I think it is just about expectations on Jones being like a ratchet. Once he does better, that's his new level below which he now cannot go below.

I do agree somewhat that he might be saturated with learning. He has done a remarkable job at learning while playing as well as most experienced QBs, but he's a rookie. I would have been fine and did advocate he sit for a year. Peyton started his rookie year and went 3-13. Second year 13-3. Brady sat a year and did well his second year in 2001. Even then, though, there were a lot of people who wanted to go back to Bledsoe and were vocal about it with every bad game Brady had until Bledsoe was traded. And even then Brady only won 9 games his third year (second year of actual playing. Did he face a sophomore slump or did he regress? Lots of debate in 2002; not so much today. :coffee:

In the end, I think we'll be much better in 2022 than we would have been if Jones had sat for 2021. The price is having a rookie play and expect him not to be a rookie. Maybe he is saturated but maybe we are expecting him to be both good and consistent. Rookies just aren't generally consistent especially on offense and most especially at QB.

Until we play out the season, I'm going to think The Real McCorkle™ is more like the guy who went 7-0 than the guy who went 0-2, so if I were a betting man, I'm predicting the Pats go 11-6 rather than 9-8.
 
IMO, Mac needs to improve his arm strength considerably over the off-season as well as his pocket presence.
 
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By and large, his pocket presence has been atypically good for a rookie and better than average among all NFL quarterbacks. His arm strength earlier in the season was more than acceptable, but it seems to have lessened recently, which would be expected for a rookie. Those who believe he's already reached his ceiling are either delusional or engaging in wishful thinking. He'll never be Brady, but he'll be damn good and he'll win SBs (plural) here with the coaching and ownership which are in place. The future is bright. I know that reality really pisses off some here and millions outside of NE, but those whiners will just have to stock up on Kleenex and put up with it.
 
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spacecrime said:
Is that better or worse than no one having a clue pre-game whether Josh Allen will be playing like an MVP that game, or sucking so bad it changes the weather patterns in western NY.

So what's the tell? I remember a couple of games when Kevin Faulk lined up ahead of the QB it would be a pass play, even or a foot behind the QB it would be a draw, and two or more feet behind (rare) it would be a regular handoff. Drew Pearson one game would buckle his chin strap if it was a pass play, and leave it unbuckled for a run play.

Personally I hope there is a tell, whether it's Jones or anyone else, because that can be fixed it two minutes. And a lot easier that trying to make Allen play consistently. That's why you probably aren't going to win a superbowl with him. Not that he can't play well enough, it's just that he can't play that well for four games straight.
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For sure, there are too many hot takes on Jones based on the last couple of weeks - where he really didn't even play that badly. I still see him being the long-term QB for NE, and no one knows what his ceiling is.

But Allen is a top 3 QB in the league, imo. I don't see the inconsistency you're talking about here.
 
Mazz22 said:
IMO, Mac needs to improve his arm strength considerably over the off-season as well as his pocket presence.
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Arm strength is pretty clear and I think I've seen you post variations on that theme several times, but
pocket presence is a bit more subjective.

What do you think the specific issues Mac has with his pocket presence are?
 
Mazz22 said:
IMO, Mac needs to improve his arm strength considerably over the off-season as well as his pocket presence.
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Hawg73 said:
Arm strength is pretty clear and I think I've seen you post variations on that theme several times, but
pocket presence is a bit more subjective.

What do you think the specific issues Mac has with his pocket presence are?
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the pocket presence referred to by the OPer is that which has been noted by many NFL broadcast color men as "how well TB slides up in the pocket"

I feel the OPer would prefer the language "how silkily-smooth TB glides w/ his glute-mounds undulating into the open pocket space available" :cool:
 
spacecrime said:
This reminds me a bit of Steve Burton on Patriots All access last night: "All QBs have bad games, and Jones is still a rookie, but has he regressed?" One man's regression is another man's slump, I suppose.

Foxx and friends think he's hit his ceiling. I think it is just about expectations on Jones being like a ratchet. Once he does better, that's his new level below which he now cannot go below.

I do agree somewhat that he might be saturated with learning. He has done a remarkable job at learning while playing as well as most experienced QBs, but he's a rookie. I would have been fine and did advocate he sit for a year. Peyton started his rookie year and went 3-13. Second year 13-3. Brady sat a year and did well his second year in 2001. Even then, though, there were a lot of people who wanted to go back to Bledsoe and were vocal about it with every bad game Brady had until Bledsoe was traded. And even then Brady only won 9 games his third year (second year of actual playing. Did he face a sophomore slump or did he regress? Lots of debate in 2002; not so much today. :coffee:

In the end, I think we'll be much better in 2022 than we would have been if Jones had sat for 2021. The price is having a rookie play and expect him not to be a rookie. Maybe he is saturated but maybe we are expecting him to be both good and consistent. Rookies just aren't generally consistent especially on offense and most especially at QB.

Until we play out the season, I'm going to think The Real McCorkle™ is more like the guy who went 7-0 than the guy who went 0-2, so if I were a betting man, I'm predicting the Pats go 11-6 rather than 9-8.
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First, I love The Real McCorkle™. 👍

I think Mac has shown that while his progression hasn't been a linear line angled straight up, the valleys in that line have been brief and whatever caused the dip doesn't seem to hold
him back for very long and that is going right back to his early practices. During that time, he's displayed great resilience. Resilience seems to be a trait the kid has in spades. He solves the problem and moves on.

Now, he's in a slump or however it could be characterized and even if he stays in it for the duration of this season, it's been a very successful one to my eyes, but given the short attention
span of the most football fans, his future will be a question mark for many with arm strength the most questioned aspect of his game.

I'm not going to get ahead of myself here, but I think we're going to see a bounce back game Sunday because that is who I think he is. He's got the fire in his belly and he won't
overreact to last week and two straight rough losses. He'll find the range and address the latest blip in his progress with a nice performance and people will relax a little after they see
the Real McCorkle make another appearance.

As far as Brady's 3rd year, he had many of the same arm questions that we're seeing with Mac and they were legit. Defenses adjusted to what his tendencies were and he adjusted to that by improving his his ability to drive the ball, but that was a gradual process. He was considered a fluke by many back then and the GOAT by exactly nobody.
 
Hawg73 said:
Arm strength is pretty clear and I think I've seen you post variations on that theme several times, but
pocket presence is a bit more subjective.

What do you think the specific issues Mac has with his pocket presence are?
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He does not climb the pocket. When pressure comes from the outside he tends to bail either sideways or backwards. What I do like is he has some good wheels to get out of trouble so if he can use those to make some easy yards like Russel Wilson does than I think that would keep the yardage positive and also help the team to pick up first downs on third and medium/short.

I think all of that should improve this offseason but the arm strength is a real red flag. I don't know how much he can realistically improve it. On the plus side, he came into the league with a Dad bod so there is a ton a room for improvement strength-wise.

The one game that worried me and I think you as well as you posted about it was the Buffalo game where Bill did not let him throw but 3 times. I think that shook his confidence. I am not sure why the game plan had to be that extreme especially when Mac had the wind at his back. I mean overall, Bill and Josh have done a fantastic job with developing Mac this year but that one game is a real head scratcher.
 
Hawg73 said:
As far as Brady's 3rd year, he had many of the same arm questions that we're seeing with Mac and they were legit. Defenses adjusted to what his tendencies were and he adjusted to that by improving his his ability to drive the ball, but that was a gradual process. He was considered a fluke by many back then and the GOAT by exactly nobody.
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IMO, there has been a sea change in the QB position the last 5-7 years as the college concepts have come into the NFL. The QB position is now looked at as one where the QB has off-platform arm talent and also athletic ability to be a dual threat. A big reason why Mac was the 5th QB taken was because the QBs ahead of him were believed to possess the traits most important to today's game.

When you look at the top teams in the league right now - KC, Cincy, Tenn, Buffalo, GB, TB, Rams, Dallas - every single one of them with the exception of Tenn have dynamic offenses led by a top tier or elite QB. This has been the trend now for a few years. You are not going to see teams anymore led by primarily by defense and the run game in the final 8 anymore. This is in part because of how the offenses have changed in concert with the rules which makes the passing game criminal to defend.

So when it comes to Mac and looking back at 2001 or 2002 or any of those early years, we are a doing a real disservice to how the game has changed and what is required of Mac versus Brady or any QB from that era. You have to start looking through the lens of the NFL offenses and young QBs from the last 5 years to properly gauge Mac's development toward being a franchise QB in this league. In other words, how does he compare to Burrow, Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, Murray, Prescott. Those are the QBs to look at as those are the ones he has to compete with in today's NFL. All of those guys are running high level offenses with dynamic play makers all over the field. The Patriots offense has got to catch up with those teams and quickly. I think the guys added this past off-season have been mixed at best with Bourne and Henry as the only 2 stand outs and both of them are B level players. Without more dynamic, A level play makers, Mac and this offense with always be playing at a disadvantage with a really small margin for error. IMO, that is where things have to change from a team perspective as well as Mac's development in concert with that.
 
Stafford is top tier/elite these days?
no he's like brees. a good qb, but now on a better team with better coaching. tannehill is decent, but on a better team with good coaching.
 
even jete writers see it... :coffee:


​

Patriots’ Mac Jones is already ahead of the Tom Brady curve​

By
Steve Serby
November 27, 2021 10:38am

Before Tom Brady marched the Patriots into position for Adam Vinatieri’s game-winning field goal against the Rams at the end of Super Bowl XXXVI, before anyone knew that a GOAT grazed inside him, the great John Madden suggested in the CBS booth that Bill Belichick play for overtime against the Greatest Show on Turf.
There will never be another Tom Brady.
But understand this: Brady, in his second season as starter, was not as advanced as Mac Jones is now.
“It might be blasphemous, but someone who wasn’t nearly to me what Mac Jones is right now,” NFL Network analyst and Hall of Fame quarterback Kurt Warner told Serby Says, “just in terms of what they’re asking him to do, how they’re asking him to make plays, the amount of plays that they’re asking him to make.
“We played Tom Brady in the Super Bowl that year and I think he threw for like 150 yards maybe [145]. … I think he had one touchdown pass [in the Super Bowl] throughout that playoff run to the Super Bowl. So he wasn’t being asked to do nearly as much as Mac Jones is doing, in my opinion. And that has to excite you.
 
TheColtGuy said:
For sure, there are too many hot takes on Jones based on the last couple of weeks - where he really didn't even play that badly. I still see him being the long-term QB for NE, and no one knows what his ceiling is.

But Allen is a top 3 QB in the league, imo. I don't see the inconsistency you're talking about here.
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Some games he just goes back to "Bad Josh" and makes stupid decisions. Hes an incredible runner and has developed into a fine passer, but sometimes he does head-scratchingly stupid things. No one knows Allen's ceiling, either, so I over-stepped by saying his career will be Lombardi-less. Me thinking he can't overcome a penchant for doing too much and forcing throws puts me in the same category as the 'what you did last week is who you are' talking heads. Mea Culpa :)

I took exception to your calling Allen a top 3 QB in the league so I looked at the NFL starting QBs and ... whoops. This year I see Mahomes and Rodgers #s 1 and 2 in either and Allen solidly 3rd.

:toast:
 
Hawg73 said:
Arm strength is pretty clear and I think I've seen you post variations on that theme several times, but
pocket presence is a bit more subjective.

What do you think the specific issues Mac has with his pocket presence are?
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No chin dimple
 
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