MERGED: Where is Caylee?

Now I'm not a lawyer, and I certainly don't know anything about Florida law, but my understanding was that she was charged with aggravated manslaughter, but not with the lower manslaughter charge.

I also don't understand why she wasn't charged with obstruction of justice (I think, a felony) rather than just lying to the cops (a misdemeanor).

Murder 1. Aggravated Child Abuse. And Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child.


Now I have no idea what the criteria are for the second 2 charges.
 
I know one thing, this is going to be a topic of discussion with my father-in-law (lawyer) at the next family cookout. ROFL
 
I know one thing, this is going to be a topic of discussion with my father-in-law (lawyer) at the next family cookout. ROFL

I'm sure you'll get some good perspective from that in all seriousness. I hope a good book outlining the trial and the prosecution's failures comes out so I can feel better about the jury.:shrug:
 
I think what I'm saying is that if they couldn't prove the cause of death, you really can't build a manslaughter case. The prosecution has to prove the cause of death and then you have to prove intent in any type of homicide trial. Unfortunately, I don't even think these idiots could prove that. Did she drown? Was she killed? What killed her? if you can't prove that, a manslaughter case is pretty weak as well.


Cleat, I'm not singling you out here, but you make the point others are making that I disagree with vehemently, so I'm responding to your post.


I'm no lawyer, but where is it written you have to PROVE the cause of death. Let me throw out an extreme example....

Husband is heard arguing with his wife.
Neighbors hear yelling and things breaking.
Husband leaves house late at night.
Husband owns boat and is seen "in the vicinity" of the marina late that night.
Husband arrives home in morning, smell of salt water air in his car.

Wife never shows up again.

Isn't it reasonable to assume he killed her and dumped her out with Bin Laden?

Body is never found. Squid food.

Obviously you cannot prove a death here, much less a cause of death. Is this then the "perfect" murder?


What I hear as the cause of such a poor case is that she was missing for so long, that a lot of evidence couldn't be recovered due to the decay of it.


There is something inherently wrong with them benefitting from a lack of evidence particularly when they themselves greatly contributed to that lack of evidence.
 
Cleat, I'm not singling you out here, but you make the point others are making that I disagree with vehemently, so I'm responding to your post.


I'm no lawyer, but where is it written you have to PROVE the cause of death. Let me throw out an extreme example....

Husband is heard arguing with his wife.
Neighbors hear yelling and things breaking.
Husband leaves house late at night.
Husband owns boat and is seen "in the vicinity" of the marina late that night.
Husband arrives home in morning, smell of salt water air in his car.

Wife never shows up again.

Isn't it reasonable to assume he killed her and dumped her out with Bin Laden?

Body is never found. Squid food.

Obviously you cannot prove a death here, much less a cause of death. Is this then the "perfect" murder?





There is something inherently wrong with them benefitting from a lack of evidence particularly when they themselves greatly contributed to that lack of evidence.

I agree it might be reasonable to assume such. However simply being reasonable is not a high enough standard to return a guilty verdict in a criminal case.
 
I agree it might be reasonable to assume such. However simply being reasonable is not a high enough standard to return a guilty verdict in a criminal case.


Exactly, I think Dershoiwtz spells it out much more clearly than I could.

It's not enough to be "pretty sure". That doesn't meet the burden of proof.

Even if it is "likely" or "probable" that a defendant committed the murder, he must be acquitted, because neither likely nor probable satisfies the daunting standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Accordingly, a legally proper result—acquittal in such a case—may not be the same as a morally just result. In such a case, justice has not been done to the victim, but the law has prevailed.
 
There is something inherently wrong with them benefitting from a lack of evidence particularly when they themselves greatly contributed to that lack of evidence.


I previously answered the other part with my response to Chet but not really and I'm not sure how much you can prove that they contributed to that.

You can say that they lied about her and it took 30 days but you can't really say that she destroyed evidence without proof.

What evidence can we prove she destroyed? I'm not sure I've heard of any. If the assumption is innocent before proven guilty, you can't say that disposing of the body is an instance.... it wasn't proven she did it.... it also wasn't proven about the car trunk.... just a lot of circumstantial evidence that the prosecution was trying to connect. I'm not sure what you're referring to... remember, what I mean by this is that it has to meet the legal definition of proof and not what we "are pretty sure" is true. That isn't enough to convict.
 
I think the role of the jury is to be "Finders of Fact". They decide what is proven, no one else.

I don't think they need "absolute" proof to "find fact".

Yes, it does go beyond "pretty sure" but no it does not have to be "absolute".

Personally, I'd settle for "pretty goddamn likely", and I think that was met here, maybe not for Murder 1, but most assuredly for Manslaughter. I am comfortable saying that "it's pretty goddamn likely she was involved in that childs death" and "it's pretty goddamn likely her covering it up contributed to the decay of evidence".

I should be on a jury.
 
I think the role of the jury is to be "Finders of Fact". They decide what is proven, no one else.

They were given that task and said that the prosecution failed to prove their case... can't get any clearer than that. What people are now doing is saying that the jury was wrong. How is that leaving the decision in their hands as you would like? They said "Not Guilty". Isn't that enough since you think that's their role?


I don't think they need "absolute" proof to "find fact".

Who said absolute? "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" is the bar and the jury had doubts about the case the prosecution presented, not her innocence... they stated that clearly in interviews.


Yes, it does go beyond "pretty sure" but no it does not have to be "absolute".
see first ansewr


Personally, I'd settle for "pretty goddamn likely", and I think that was met here, maybe not for Murder 1, but most assuredly for Manslaughter. I am comfortable saying that "it's pretty goddamn likely she was involved in that childs death" and "it's pretty goddamn likely her covering it up contributed to the decay of evidence".

I should be on a jury.

Again, that's not what the law states and you would be doing the system an injustice to take matters into your own hands IMHO.

I would be glad if you weren't on a jury if I were the defendant if you're going to ignore the law ;)


Again, I'm not trying to say that justice was served. I'm only trying to understand how this happened. As I read more and more, I'm more and more convinced that the prosecution dropped the ball. Their job is to bring the case to trial when they have no reasonable doubt on their part.

If we're going to lower the bar, then you can't say "innocent until proven guilty" anymore because you just have to look guilty.

Our system is set up to err on the side of caution. The system says it's better to let the guilty go free than to convict an innocent. People slip through the cracks because of this.
 
I think I'm one of those idiots ROFL

When I'm called to jury duty (several times), I do show up. I've never been selected to be on a jury but I show up. Now, I may be an idiot but I do take it seriously. I'm glad I didn't get selected so it's not like I wanted to be on a jury but I do take it seriously. I think a lot of people do.


I took it seriously because the notice that Boston sends out says that they fine you $2,000.00 if you don't show up.
 
I took it seriously because the notice that Boston sends out says that they fine you $2,000.00 if you don't show up.


I think serving on a jury is a small step below serving your country in the armed forces. I would love to serve on a jury, but since I was a police department employee, I am never chosen. :mad:
 
I've been called a few times and went. Never sat on a jury tho.

Couldn't have been my "Hang em all and let God sort them out" T-shirt that I wore.... :shrug:
 
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