Parcells Deserves Patriots HOF Honor

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James Orthwein deserves more credit than Parcells for the current success of the Patriots, since his attempt to move the team to St Louis prompted Mr Kraft to refuse to break the stadium lease and to subsequently buy him out.

Thanks, Mr Orthwein :celebrate:
 
Beaglebay said:
James Orthwein deserves more credit than Parcells for the current success of the Patriots, since his attempt to move the team to St Louis prompted Mr Kraft to refuse to break the stadium lease and to subsequently buy him out.

Thanks, Mr Orthwein :celebrate:
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A statue of him shaking Mo Lewis' hand should be in the Pats Hall.
 
EasyBigFella* said:
Pretty sure if Parcells didn't take the Pats job (and add much needed legitmacy to the franchise), Kraft would have not have bought the team and this franchise would have moved to St. Louis.

The crap that went down before SB 31 was bad, but let's not pretend he's Judas either. I say absolutely put him into the Pats HOF.
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I'd put him in the Pats HOH, too, as a tour guide. A .500 winning percentage is not HOH worthy. Oh, yea, fvck him. We can disagree about this over delicious, nutritious Yuenglings next month. :toast:
 
EasyBigFella* said:
Pretty sure if Parcells didn't take the Pats job (and add much needed legitmacy to the franchise), Kraft would have not have bought the team and this franchise would have moved to St. Louis.

The crap that went down before SB 31 was bad, but let's not pretend he's Judas either. I say absolutely put him into the Pats HOF.
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Disagree with this 100 percent. No wait.... a thousand percent.

Kraft loved this team, owned the stadium, aaaaand had a sweetheart deal with the Pats that tied them to the stadium. Wicked small dollars to stay, a hundred gazillion billion dollars to leave. When Sullivan had to sell the team, many kicked the tires on it, but didn't bite BECAUSE of the stadium lease. Trump was on this list. So was Tom Clancy. They approached Kraft about breaking the lease but he said, "Nope, move and I'll be looking for my gazillion billion" so they ultimately walked away. Orthwein bought anyway, figuring that cooler heads would prevail and cash on the barrellhead would win the day, only to final come to realization that the minute Sullivan signed the deal with K-Corp (Kraft and Karp) that the team would ultimately end up in Kraft's hands.

Parcells had NOTHING to do with any of this.
 
So you don't think Parcells added any legitimacy to this organization? None at all? The Patriots were a loser on and off the field until 1994 (when Parcells came, the season ticket sell out streak etc) and the team became financially viable. You think Kraft invests that much money into this team if they were doomed to become an eternal failure (on and off the field?). Not sure having Dick McPherson at the helm would have motivated anyone local to buy this team.

Oh, and If losing a Super Bowl dooms a coach, not sure how Belichick gets off easy considering his effort in the 2007 Super Bowl was a disaster, too. I say 'yes' to Tuna.
 
EasyBigFella* said:
So you don't think Parcells added any legitimacy to this organization? None at all? The Patriots were a loser on and off the field until 1994 (when Parcells came, the season ticket sell out streak etc) and the team became financially viable. You think Kraft invests that much money into this team if they were doomed to become an eternal failure (on and off the field?). Not sure having Dick McPherson at the helm would have motivated anyone local to buy this team.

Oh, and If losing a Super Bowl dooms a coach, not sure how Belichick gets off easy considering his effort in the 2007 Super Bowl was a disaster, too. I say 'yes' to Tuna.
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I think the lies and sneaking behind the scenes to become Jets boss is what is the nut punch to most pats fans. If he was the 1st HC of the NEP to do that it would be OK (right Fairbanks) but he was the second that I can recall to do so.
 
mikiemo83 said:
I think the lies and sneaking behind the scenes to become Jets boss is what is the nut punch to most pats fans. If he was the 1st HC of the NEP to do that it would be OK (right Fairbanks) but he was the second that I can recall to do so.
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Don't disagree at all. I just don't think should invalidate what he did before that final year.
 
http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2013/08/the-exaggerated-myth-of-bill-parcells-in-new-england

The circumstances under which Parcells left New England has been documented ad nauseum, and really should’ve created much more acrimony towards the coach than it really did. He was negotiating with a division rival during Super Bowl week in which the Patriots were participating. It was betrayal of outrageous proportions, no matter what the personal situation between he and Bob Kraft was at the time.


Yet, the undeniable charisma of Parcells (along with the Patriots steady decline under Pete Carroll) led some to keep their loyalties to Parcells, and to pardon him for his actions. Particularly in the media was this case, with Parcells toadies breathlessly praising him at every opportunity.
After the Pete Carroll era flamed out, longtime Parcells assistant Bill Belichick was hired – under perhaps just as big a cloud of controversy as Parcells’ departure from New England – and after a season of adjustment, proceeded to win three Super Bowls in four seasons.


Belichick possesses none of the innate charisma of Parcells. This has turned off many in the media, and some of the fan base as well, who wistfully pine for the entertaining press conferences of Parcells. To these, Parcells is the ultimate football guy, and no one can compare.


The people still exist, and attempt to give credit for the Super Bowl victories to Parcells, claiming that those titles were won with “his” players.
A caller to Felger and Mazz at the start of yesterday’s show was one of these people, claiming forcefully that “70% of the defense on those Super Bowl titles were Parcells’ draft picks and players.” The hosts, naturally did not disagree, though Felger tempered it somewhat by saying that by the ’04 team, “it was more 50/50 Parcells and Belichick guys.”
Complete Myth.


Let’s take a look. Now remember, the caller and host was only talking about defense here. First of all, five* Parcells draft picks on defense ever won a Super Bowl with the Patriots.
1994 Willie McGinest (3 titles)
1995 Ty Law (3 titles, though injured for 2004 postseason)
1995 Ted Johnson (3 titles)
1996 Lawyer Milloy (1 title, gone after 2002 season)
1996 Teddy Bruschi (3 titles)
*Marty Moore was a 1994 Parcells pick (Mr Irrelevant) played 3 games with 2001 Patriots, assisting on two tackles.

Granted, those are five outstanding players in Patriots history. You might eventually see all five in the Patriots’ Hall of Fame. You could call those guys the core of your defense.
What about the rest of the squad though? What guys on defense had played for Parcells previously?


2001
Bryan Cox – played two seasons under Parcells with the Jets. Played 11 games for 2001 Patriots. (1 title)
Roman Phifer – played one season under Parcells with Jets. Played four seasons under Belichick with Patriots. (3 titles)
Otis Smith – played four seasons under Parcells, with NE and Jets. Three seasons with Belichick with Patriots. (1 title)
Bobby Hamilton – played three seasons under Parcells with Jets, four seasons with Belichick with Patriots. (2 titles)
Anthony Pleasant – played five seasons under Belichick in Cleveland, two with Parcells with Jets and three with Belichick with Patriots (2 titles)


2003
Phifer
Hamilton
Pleasant
Rick Lyle – played three seasons under Parcells with Jets, two with Belichick with Patriots. (8 games in 2003)


2004
Phifer
That’s it.
Am I seeing 70% of the defense? Am I even seeing 50/50?


Furthermore, those five core guys are the only players drafted by Bill Parcells to win a Super Bowl with the Patriots, period. He didn’t draft any of the other guys who played for both him and Belichick.

Furthermore, what did Parcells say in his farewell press conference with New England? A complaint about not being able to “shop for the groceries?” Indicating that he didn’t have control over the draft picks and personnel? So are the “Parcells guys” listed above, really “Parcells guys?”
Remember, the 1996 draft was the one that yielded Milloy and Bruschi, but that was also the one that triggered the whole exodus of Parcells from New England because he was overruled in the draft when the Patriots selected Terry Glenn in the first round.


Check this quote from Charley Armey in a Michael Madden column from 2000:
Parcells, said Armey, “didn’t make any selections at all” after the infamous Terry Glenn episode on draft day in 1996. And, by then, Armey had been relegated to being “like any other scout. I wasn’t running the draft.”
​
In that column, Armey also states that Parcells never had full authority over the draft to begin with:
See, people think Bill had the final authority to make the picks with the Patriots but that was never in his contract. Not when I was there, and I left after he did.
​
The whole argument of Parcells being the architect of those Super Bowl champions is just not true.


Like I said in the opener, I loved having Bill Parcells coach the New England Patriots, but lets ease up on the legend that he “built” the defenses that won three Super Bowls here in New England. If you want to attack Belichick for not being able to build a championship defense since 2004, that’s one thing, but to give all the credit to Parcells for the three wins, or even claiming that 70% or 50% were “Parcells guys” is preposterous.
 
EasyBigFella* said:
Don't disagree at all. I just don't think should invalidate what he did before that final year.
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I do.

He was in such a hurry to catch the first bus out of town, to go coach the enemy? Good. Go in the Jets hall of fame. You're all done here.
 
Let me be even a bit more brutal.

Parcells had Coates and Bledsoe fall into his lap.

Pete Carroll had a better record than Parcells did.

BB proved that he was the brains behind the Parcells 'mystique'.

So, no, I don't think Parcells added much of anything to the team, that couldn't have been accomplished by any JAG coach who got two all-pros like that.
 
Beaglebay said:
http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2013/08/the-exaggerated-myth-of-bill-parcells-in-new-england

The circumstances under which Parcells left New England has been documented ad nauseum, and really should’ve created much more acrimony towards the coach than it really did. He was negotiating with a division rival during Super Bowl week in which the Patriots were participating. It was betrayal of outrageous proportions, no matter what the personal situation between he and Bob Kraft was at the time.


Yet, the undeniable charisma of Parcells (along with the Patriots steady decline under Pete Carroll) led some to keep their loyalties to Parcells, and to pardon him for his actions. Particularly in the media was this case, with Parcells toadies breathlessly praising him at every opportunity.
After the Pete Carroll era flamed out, longtime Parcells assistant Bill Belichick was hired – under perhaps just as big a cloud of controversy as Parcells’ departure from New England – and after a season of adjustment, proceeded to win three Super Bowls in four seasons.


Belichick possesses none of the innate charisma of Parcells. This has turned off many in the media, and some of the fan base as well, who wistfully pine for the entertaining press conferences of Parcells. To these, Parcells is the ultimate football guy, and no one can compare.


The people still exist, and attempt to give credit for the Super Bowl victories to Parcells, claiming that those titles were won with “his” players.
A caller to Felger and Mazz at the start of yesterday’s show was one of these people, claiming forcefully that “70% of the defense on those Super Bowl titles were Parcells’ draft picks and players.” The hosts, naturally did not disagree, though Felger tempered it somewhat by saying that by the ’04 team, “it was more 50/50 Parcells and Belichick guys.”
Complete Myth.


Let’s take a look. Now remember, the caller and host was only talking about defense here. First of all, five* Parcells draft picks on defense ever won a Super Bowl with the Patriots.
1994 Willie McGinest (3 titles)
1995 Ty Law (3 titles, though injured for 2004 postseason)
1995 Ted Johnson (3 titles)
1996 Lawyer Milloy (1 title, gone after 2002 season)
1996 Teddy Bruschi (3 titles)
*Marty Moore was a 1994 Parcells pick (Mr Irrelevant) played 3 games with 2001 Patriots, assisting on two tackles.

Granted, those are five outstanding players in Patriots history. You might eventually see all five in the Patriots’ Hall of Fame. You could call those guys the core of your defense.
What about the rest of the squad though? What guys on defense had played for Parcells previously?


2001
Bryan Cox – played two seasons under Parcells with the Jets. Played 11 games for 2001 Patriots. (1 title)
Roman Phifer – played one season under Parcells with Jets. Played four seasons under Belichick with Patriots. (3 titles)
Otis Smith – played four seasons under Parcells, with NE and Jets. Three seasons with Belichick with Patriots. (1 title)
Bobby Hamilton – played three seasons under Parcells with Jets, four seasons with Belichick with Patriots. (2 titles)
Anthony Pleasant – played five seasons under Belichick in Cleveland, two with Parcells with Jets and three with Belichick with Patriots (2 titles)


2003
Phifer
Hamilton
Pleasant
Rick Lyle – played three seasons under Parcells with Jets, two with Belichick with Patriots. (8 games in 2003)


2004
Phifer
That’s it.
Am I seeing 70% of the defense? Am I even seeing 50/50?


Furthermore, those five core guys are the only players drafted by Bill Parcells to win a Super Bowl with the Patriots, period. He didn’t draft any of the other guys who played for both him and Belichick.

Furthermore, what did Parcells say in his farewell press conference with New England? A complaint about not being able to “shop for the groceries?” Indicating that he didn’t have control over the draft picks and personnel? So are the “Parcells guys” listed above, really “Parcells guys?”
Remember, the 1996 draft was the one that yielded Milloy and Bruschi, but that was also the one that triggered the whole exodus of Parcells from New England because he was overruled in the draft when the Patriots selected Terry Glenn in the first round.


Check this quote from Charley Armey in a Michael Madden column from 2000:
Parcells, said Armey, “didn’t make any selections at all” after the infamous Terry Glenn episode on draft day in 1996. And, by then, Armey had been relegated to being “like any other scout. I wasn’t running the draft.”
​
In that column, Armey also states that Parcells never had full authority over the draft to begin with:
See, people think Bill had the final authority to make the picks with the Patriots but that was never in his contract. Not when I was there, and I left after he did.
​
The whole argument of Parcells being the architect of those Super Bowl champions is just not true.


Like I said in the opener, I loved having Bill Parcells coach the New England Patriots, but lets ease up on the legend that he “built” the defenses that won three Super Bowls here in New England. If you want to attack Belichick for not being able to build a championship defense since 2004, that’s one thing, but to give all the credit to Parcells for the three wins, or even claiming that 70% or 50% were “Parcells guys” is preposterous.
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Parcels guys????? but wasn't he upset he was not allowed to buy the groceries making them Bobby Grier's guys?

plus it was Pete Carroll that taught the defensive backs how to play
 
I know this might not be a popular sentiment, but Tuna as GM and BB as coach might be the perfect combo (Jets fans just ran en mass fpr the Brooklyn Bridge).

Parcells grocieries were a HUGE part of our 3 SBs and Belichick schemes were integral to 2 Giants SBs.
 
Will McD said:
It's a shame that the Patriots put Parcells up against Ty Law.

Without Parcells, I doubt we would have a franchise.
Parcells ended the reign of the laughingstock Patriots, made us relevant,
and built a great core of players that unexpectedly took us to the 1996 Superbowl.

Ty Law deserves to go into Patriots HOF, but not before Parcells.

Either way you feel, goto patriots.com and vote.
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No Parcells. Replace him with Bob Kraft.:thumb:
 
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