Peyton, Brady, Mac and Greatness

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John Locke

John Locke

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The debate raged for years during the most bitter and beautiful rivalry I've seen in professional football, who was better Manning or Brady. The focus was mainly on the players to a good degree as it should be but there many other factors that play into this debate

I have heard many wonder if Peyton would have been considered far greater than Tom had he had a great defense.

I think not.

From seeing it up close and personal for over 20 years I think it is the fundamental difference is in organizational philosophy, not just the defense.

The team of Kraft and Hoodie are second to none in NFL history. This organization just bleeds and breeds success flowing from its fundamental principles.

Bill, I assert afforded Brady the environment, coaches, and direction to develop and he handled him to perfection, it's what he does, gets the most out of all his players.

That takes nothing away from Tom cuz it was on him to develop in that situation. It was his heart, fire, and driven determination that made him the GOAT.

I have seen only one other player with Tom's level of drive and incredible will to win and that was Michael Jordan.

One major difference though, MJ was phenomenally gifted athletically, Brady, not so much. LOL.

But much like Tom, he had that fire and they were more clutch than any other players I can think of. When it’s all on the line they kick it into another insane gear, a level of focus and athletic skill second to none, and nailed it far more often than not.

Peyton had the gifts and the pedigree and training but it seems he was lacking somewhere in that realm. Still a helluva QB. One of the greatest to ever toss a pigskin.

Bottom line, Brady started out solid, developed into the all-world player, second to none but it was Bob Kraft and Bill Belichick who created the culture of winning and the perfect environment for Brady.

Now, as the dynasty enters its 3rd iteration let’s see what they do with Mac Jones. He has every chance and skill to be one of the all-time greats. It’s up to him.
 
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johnlocke said:
The debate raged for years during the most bitter and beautiful rivalry I've seen in professional football, who was better Manning or Bradyr. The focus was mainly on the players to a good degree as it should be but there many other factors that play into this debate

I have heard many wonder if Peyton would have been considered far greater than Tom had he had a great defense.

I think not.

From seeing it up close and personal for over 20 years I think it is the fundamental difference is in organizational philosophy, not just the defense.

The team of Kraft and Hoodie are second to none in NFL history. This organization just bleeds and breeds success flowing from its fundamental principles.

Bill, I assert afforded Brady the environment, coaches, and direction to develop and he handled him to perfection, it's what he does, gets the most out of all his players.

That takes nothing away from Tom cuz it was on him to develop in that situation. It was his heart, fire, and driven determination that made him the GOAT.

I have seen only one other player with Tom's level of drive and incredible will to win and that was Michael Jordan.

One major difference though, MJ was phenomenally gifted athletically, Brady, not so much. LOL.

But much like Tom, he had that fire and they were more clutch than any other players I can think of. When it’s all on the line they kick it into another insane gear, a level of focus and athletic skill second to none, and nailed it far more often than not.

Peyton had the gifts and the pedigree and training but it seems he was lacking somewhere in that realm. Still a helluva QB. One of the greatest to ever toss a pigskin.

Bottom line, Brady started out solid, developed into the all-world player, second to none but it was Bob Kraft and Bill Belichick who created the culture of winning and the perfect environment for Brady.

Now, as the dynasty enters its 3rd iteration let’s see what they do with Mac Jones. He has every chance and skill to be one of the all-time greats. It’s up to him.
Click to expand...

Bill is a great coach, Brady is a great player, they both are great at what they do, and neither does what the other one does. Brady took a chance to leave that to see if he could still win. he could. Bill has that opportunity to do the same. Thats the great thing about football, taking advantage of your opportunity. Some players get them easy. Top round draft picks, get several years to fail before they are cast off. Some players get one. They are great in their own rights, and they damn sure helped each other greatly, and both of them know it and both have said so, even if some fans do not. Mac can be great, but its up to him, not bill, not the team, not Kraft. 10 Qb's have came to the pats in the last 20 years...or there abouts. None of them are even in a conversation of a goat or even a good. You either are, or you are not a great coach, you either are or you are not a great player. You either have it in you to get better and keep getting better or you dont. Very few do.

This culture of winning? Yeah it is not installed and magically just makes players win. It takes the player or players to win. Jimmy Johnson brought a culture of winning to the cowboys, then he went to miami, and he brought that culture of winning there, and well....they didnt win. Great organizations become great organizations when they start winning. Great players making great plays. Coaches with great situational management. Players have to execute, without that, there is no culture of winning. If Mac can work hard and push himself and make his life football and make his life about winning, and continue to work and never be satisfied, he might some day get that. Its up to him as I said. If he doesnt, then it was not the culture of winning that failed him, it was him.

I never blame Belichick for failed players. There is only so much a coach can do. Its up to the players to execute. He cannot do it for them, they either do or they don't. Players can make you look like a genius, or they can make you look like a failure, and thinking you are going to get fired and have bad seasons. Every coach is looking for that type of player that can have overwelming consistency. Its a coaches dream. They buy in and they help build. Not many do. If you have that coach and that player, poof, you have a culture of winning. I will quote Bill Belichick in regards to Brady and what he did....

"Tom was not just a player who bought into our program. He was one of its original creators. Tom lived and perpetuated our culture. On a daily basis, he was a tone setter and a bar raiser."

Maybe one day people will stop trying to put one over the other as to how it formed. I am not sure why its hard to say, they formed it, but people want to say, "he" formed it. Sorry folks, it was they who formed it. A great coach like Bill can go win a superbowl or two, a great QB like Brady can go win a superbowl or two. To win 6, to go to 10 title games, to have 20 years of a winning record in a cap era? Sorry, it takes both. It took both. Who is more responsible? No way to answer, again they do not do the same thing, but frankly, who cares.

People are going to talk, the media is going to talk. One was going to come off better. If Bill went out and won 12 games with Cam and won a superbowl. They would be telling of his lore for years, and Brady would have been tossed to the heap of players that couldnt make it without him. The story was already written before the year even started, it was just about who's name was going to be inserted. The fact is, no matter what happened, it would answer nothing. I was not shocked when Brady went and won another superbowl, I would not be shocked if Bill won another superbowl. I also would not have been shocked if neither of them did. The one thing that I knew would happen though, is one side would be mad. The best outcome would have been neither of them winning at least for that silly argument. The best outcome now for me at least, is both continue to have success. neither have anything to prove, neither have anything to answer for. 20 years form now, nobody will even think about it. Nobody bashes Montana for not winning a superbowl in KC, and nobody bashes walsh for not winning a superbowl after joe left even with an all time great in Steve Young. But people have to have sides, people have to have arguments, but in years down the road, none of that matters as both will be individually respected for what they were and also together as what they were. No amount of trashing of this post I wrote will change that.
 
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Inspector_50 said:
Bill is a great coach, Brady is a great player, they both are great at what they do, and neither does what the other one does. Brady took a chance to leave that to see if he could still win. he could. Bill has that opportunity to do the same. Thats the great thing about football, taking advantage of your opportunity. Some players get them easy. Top round draft picks, get several years to fail before they are cast off. Some players get one. They are great in their own rights, and they damn sure helped each other greatly, and both of them know it and both have said so, even if some fans do not. Mac can be great, but its up to him, not bill, not the team, not Kraft. 10 Qb's have came to the pats in the last 20 years...or there abouts. None of them are even in a conversation of a goat or even a good. You either are, or you are not a great coach, you either are or you are not a great player. You either have it in you to get better and keep getting better or you dont. Very few do.

This culture of winning? Yeah it is not installed and magically just makes players win. It takes the player or players to win. Jimmy Johnson brought a culture of winning to the cowboys, then he went to miami, and he brought that culture of winning there, and well....they didnt win. Great organizations become great organizations when they start winning. Great players making great plays. Coaches with great situational management. Players have to execute, without that, there is no culture of winning. If Mac can work hard and push himself and make his life football and make his life about winning, and continue to work and never be satisfied, he might some day get that. Its up to him as I said. If he doesnt, then it was not the culture of winning that failed him, it was him.

I never blame Belichick for failed players. There is only so much a coach can do. Its up to the players to execute. He cannot do it for them, they either do or they don't. Players can make you look like a genius, or they can make you look like a failure, and thinking you are going to get fired and have bad seasons. Every coach is looking for that type of player that can have overwelming consistency. Its a coaches dream. They buy in and they help build. Not many do. If you have that coach and that player, poof, you have a culture of winning. I will quote Bill Belichick in regards to Brady and what he did....

"Tom was not just a player who bought into our program. He was one of its original creators. Tom lived and perpetuated our culture. On a daily basis, he was a tone setter and a bar raiser."

Maybe one day people will stop trying to put one over the other as to how it formed. I am not sure why its hard to say, they formed it, but people want to say, "he" formed it. Sorry folks, it was they who formed it. A great coach like Bill can go win a superbowl or two, a great QB like Brady can go win a superbowl or two. To win 6, to go to 10 title games, to have 20 years of a winning record in a cap era? Sorry, it takes both. It took both. Who is more responsible? No way to answer, again they do not do the same thing, but frankly, who cares.

People are going to talk, the media is going to talk. One was going to come off better. If Bill went out and won 12 games with Cam and won a superbowl. They would be telling of his lore for years, and Brady would have been tossed to the heap of players that couldnt make it without him. The story was already written before the year even started, it was just about who's name was going to be inserted. The fact is, no matter what happened, it would answer nothing. I was not shocked when Brady went and won another superbowl, I would not be shocked if Bill won another superbowl. I also would not have been shocked if neither of them did. The one thing that I knew would happen though, is one side would be mad. The best outcome would have been neither of them winning at least for that silly argument. The best outcome now for me at least, is both continue to have success. neither have anything to prove, neither have anything to answer for. 20 years form now, nobody will even think about it. Nobody bashes Montana for not winning a superbowl in KC, and nobody bashes walsh for not winning a superbowl after joe left even with an all time great in Steve Young. But people have to have sides, people have to have arguments, but in years down the road, none of that matters as both will be individually respected for what they were and also together as what they were. No amount of trashing of this post I wrote will change that.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you didn't get about this: That takes nothing away from Tom cuz it was on him to develop in that situation. It was his heart, fire, and driven determination that made him the GOAT.
 
Inspector_50 said:
Bill is a great coach, Brady is a great player, they both are great at what they do, and neither does what the other one does. Brady took a chance to leave that to see if he could still win. he could. Bill has that opportunity to do the same. Thats the great thing about football, taking advantage of your opportunity. Some players get them easy. Top round draft picks, get several years to fail before they are cast off. Some players get one. They are great in their own rights, and they damn sure helped each other greatly, and both of them know it and both have said so, even if some fans do not. Mac can be great, but its up to him, not bill, not the team, not Kraft. 10 Qb's have came to the pats in the last 20 years...or there abouts. None of them are even in a conversation of a goat or even a good. You either are, or you are not a great coach, you either are or you are not a great player. You either have it in you to get better and keep getting better or you dont. Very few do.

This culture of winning? Yeah it is not installed and magically just makes players win. It takes the player or players to win. Jimmy Johnson brought a culture of winning to the cowboys, then he went to miami, and he brought that culture of winning there, and well....they didnt win. Great organizations become great organizations when they start winning. Great players making great plays. Coaches with great situational management. Players have to execute, without that, there is no culture of winning. If Mac can work hard and push himself and make his life football and make his life about winning, and continue to work and never be satisfied, he might some day get that. Its up to him as I said. If he doesnt, then it was not the culture of winning that failed him, it was him.

I never blame Belichick for failed players. There is only so much a coach can do. Its up to the players to execute. He cannot do it for them, they either do or they don't. Players can make you look like a genius, or they can make you look like a failure, and thinking you are going to get fired and have bad seasons. Every coach is looking for that type of player that can have overwelming consistency. Its a coaches dream. They buy in and they help build. Not many do. If you have that coach and that player, poof, you have a culture of winning. I will quote Bill Belichick in regards to Brady and what he did....

"Tom was not just a player who bought into our program. He was one of its original creators. Tom lived and perpetuated our culture. On a daily basis, he was a tone setter and a bar raiser."

Maybe one day people will stop trying to put one over the other as to how it formed. I am not sure why its hard to say, they formed it, but people want to say, "he" formed it. Sorry folks, it was they who formed it. A great coach like Bill can go win a superbowl or two, a great QB like Brady can go win a superbowl or two. To win 6, to go to 10 title games, to have 20 years of a winning record in a cap era? Sorry, it takes both. It took both. Who is more responsible? No way to answer, again they do not do the same thing, but frankly, who cares.

People are going to talk, the media is going to talk. One was going to come off better. If Bill went out and won 12 games with Cam and won a superbowl. They would be telling of his lore for years, and Brady would have been tossed to the heap of players that couldnt make it without him. The story was already written before the year even started, it was just about who's name was going to be inserted. The fact is, no matter what happened, it would answer nothing. I was not shocked when Brady went and won another superbowl, I would not be shocked if Bill won another superbowl. I also would not have been shocked if neither of them did. The one thing that I knew would happen though, is one side would be mad. The best outcome would have been neither of them winning at least for that silly argument. The best outcome now for me at least, is both continue to have success. neither have anything to prove, neither have anything to answer for. 20 years form now, nobody will even think about it. Nobody bashes Montana for not winning a superbowl in KC, and nobody bashes walsh for not winning a superbowl after joe left even with an all time great in Steve Young. But people have to have sides, people have to have arguments, but in years down the road, none of that matters as both will be individually respected for what they were and also together as what they were. No amount of trashing of this post I wrote will change that.
Click to expand...
I grew up in my dad's business and ran my own for over 20 very successful years. You are so far off base on what creates a winning organization it's scary, But I know where you come from and believe it is the workers the create the value of a company. While they are valuable and ought to be treated as such, they are not essential, the creator is.

An organization's culture is created from the top-down as it must and should just be logically obvious. The creators of the organizational philosophy are the prime movers. Employees are just that, and there are some that contribute much to culture and success but make no mistake, no employee is greater than a properly founded organization. The company provides the venue to shine, but they created nothing but their own skill to be utilized in the most efficient manner possible with the goal of organizational success the absolute.

I have had probably had a thousand employees over the years and I can say almost without equivocation, none would have been capable of creating the business I did, many of the ones that could have had no interest in the 18 hour days and massive amount of energy and thought that goes into any such endeavor.
,
My employees who were quality bought into my organizational philosophy and ran with it, NOT the other way around.
 
johnlocke said:
Now, as the dynasty enters its 3rd iteration let’s see what they do with Mac Jones. He has every chance and skill to be one of the all-time greats. It’s up to him.
Click to expand...
Dynasty has moved south on the banks of the St Johns River. Trevor > Mac. :coffee:
 
No.1jag said:
Dynasty has moved south on the banks of the St Johns River. Trevor > Mac. :coffee:
Click to expand...

Wanna fight? :rofl:

This could be an epic Brady/Manning debate for years to come. It's up to them what they do, I just know that Mac was drafted into the golden land of opportunity to develop his skillset and matches perfectly with this organizational philosophy. Do the Jags even have one? :)
 
johnlocke said:
Wanna fight? :rofl:

This could be an epic Brady/Manning debate for years to come. It's up to them what they do, I just know that Mac was drafted into the golden land of opportunity to develop his skillset and matches perfectly with this organizational philosophy. Do the Jags even have one? :)
Click to expand...
As much as I hated Urban in college as a coach I feel his personality fits better in the pros. Seem as though the buy in is happening here.

Even if Urban leaves after 3 or so years. I think Trevor will be at a point in his career were what he says with regards to culture to existing and players coming in new will make a difference. You can say Kraft BB but without that Superstar QB working his ass off in the offseason and others watchin this happen you have a grumpy old man and a massage loving owner with winning seasons ever few years. Possibly even 3 to 4 years in a row. Fact is the Patriots over the last 20 years was perfect match of all 3 without one of those 3 it looks nothing like it did.
 
No.1jag said:
As much as I hated Urban in college as a coach I feel his personality fits better in the pros. Seem as though the buy in is happening here.

Even if Urban leaves after 3 or so years. I think Trevor will be at a point in his career were what he says with regards to culture to existing and players coming in new will make a difference. You can say Kraft BB but without that Superstar QB working his ass off in the offseason and others watchin this happen you have a grumpy old man and a massage loving owner with winning seasons ever few years. Possibly even 3 to 4 years in a row. Fact is the Patriots over the last 20 years was perfect match of all 3 without one of those 3 it looks nothing like it did.
Click to expand...

Yes, the synergy was palpable, however, I have maintained and can absolutely back up the success was created from the top down.

I hope you guys kill it and we have massive debates on this topic for years to come, but that organization has switched philosophies so many times I will have to see the quality change in my own eyes.

One player or employee, not even of the highest level makes a football team or successful company.
 
No.1jag said:
Dynasty has moved south on the banks of the St Johns River. Trevor > Mac. :coffee:
Click to expand...
video portrayal of your actual Delusionary State, Jaggy :p









iu
 
I won't get too far into this as much as I love @johnlocke and I love a good debate, more less just because I have been there done this debate too much and it always ends nasty hahahaa. I have no problem admitting Brady is the GOAT with Peyton right behind.

The only thing I will add here that really tarnishes Manning (outside of the obvious, Brady has way more SB's) is how he was one and done early in his career. For 8 years, he only had one conf final to show for all his efforts (very similar to Luck actually) It wasn't until 2006 that Peyton went to a SB and won, and then returned 3 years later, and then returned 3 years later after that, and 2 years later. So I guess the last 10 years of his career he went to 4 Super Bowl's and won 2 which is a very nice stat, but starting your career with the one and done's he had really hurt. Another thing that hurt was the one and done against the Chargers in 07 and 08. 07 wasn't as big of a deal because they would have lost to the Patriots in the Conf final anyway, but 08 hurt a lot. Colts won 12 straight and lost to a 8-8 Chargers team, in which they beat in the regular season. BLA!!!!! Losing to the Chargers in 07 without Rivers in the second half, and to the 8-8 Chargers in 08 in my opinion is much worse than losing to the damn Pats in 03 and 04. Patriots were a dynasty and a tough team to beat who had the advantage with the weather. Chargers didn't have any advantage, it was unacceptable to lose to that team two years in a row.

Anyway, I am going to go and drink some coffee now.
 
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