Seperation of Church and State?

aloyouis on 10-19-2006 at 01:30 PM said:
Yes...it is ridiculous.

Not in a PUBLIC school it's not.

If the majority of the parents feel they want their kids to go to Bible study, send them to church.

A question for those of you around here who went to parochial schools... Do they teach evolution?
 
mgoblue101415 on 10-19-2006 at 02:34 PM said:
Not in a PUBLIC school it's not.

If the majority of the parents feel they want their kids to go to Bible study, send them to church.

A question for those of you around here who went to parochial schools... Do they teach evolution?

In my Catholic high school they did. We also had a class on religions of the world and, as I recall, it was taught in a very fair manner.

But that was back in the 70's, before our current Age of Enlightenment.

My guess is that the religious parents support this because they have better things to do on their own time than send their kids to bible study. Gotta get back home after service before the games start.
 
I see human emotions such as aggression, territoriality, dominance, mercy, family bonding and group bonding as evolved to improve the chance of an individual or group to pass on its genes. As man evolved reason and language, some of this genetic morality became cultural. Not all social behavior was genetic anymore, some of it had to be taught. Most cultures developed a dual authority, with a chief leading in practical matters while a shaman explained the unexplainable and maintained rules and morality. This in time developed into state and church.

In Western Civilization, the Reformation, Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment challenged to role of the church. Scientists began taking over the role of explaining the unexplainable. Blatantly immoral policies by the medieval Church resulted in multiple alternate systems of understanding God and behaving morally. Religious wars to determine by force of arms which religious system would triumph became unendurable, resulting in the concept of Freedom of Religion. It became accepted that each individual had the right to determine and follow their own preferred system of morality. The Enlightenment produced an alternate system of morality, based in part on Reason, in part on Rights allegedly granted by God.

Me, I'm a devout agnostic. The moral system taught in one's youth is apt to stick. I am able to respect most religious systems. They contain much wisdom of the ages. Many of them (all of them?) are not perfect. They were created in a time of muscle powered weapons, when war was cost effective. They were used and are still used to justify cultural aggression. I still believe in Freedom of Religion, that force or coercion should not be used to expand the scope and territory of an individual's moral system.

But then, the Enlightenment values have been used to justify cultural aggression as well. Many value systems are absolute. They present themselves as superior to all other value systems. Too many value systems tempt followers to use coercion or force to perpetuate themselves. In this case, we have a religious faction attempting to perpetuate religious values, while the ACLU is attempting to perpetuate extensions of Enlightenment values.

Me, I'd as soon see attempts to perpetuate religious values kept out of public schools and government institutions. I wouldn't get hyper about it. If Christians don't mind other religions putting up, say, Samhain decorations on Halloween, or Passover decorations on public property, sure, put up religious Christmas icons as well. As long as it is vaguely mutual.

I see science, reason and government slowly taking over roles once monopolized by religion. Many individuals, however, still hold to religious values as primary and absolute. They will understandably resist the notion that various value systems must be put on an equal footing. I don't anticipate easy answers.
 
cka203 on 10-19-2006 at 01:08 PM said:
Follow-up in today's paper on the original article stated that out of 23 students in this kid's class, 21 signed up for the religion class. Which proves my point about the "minority ruling the majority". So this kid's mom is upset that her kid's not going to this class (her choice), so she's gonna make it a rule that NO ONE can go?! Ridiculous!

Yes, the situation is ridiculously simple. Public school time is not Bible time. Home time is Bible time. Church time is Bible time. After school, teachers off the clock, I'm a-ok with that being voluntary Bible time, if parents would rather someone else give that to their kids, instead of them. Why they would want someone else handling such a personal issue is beyond me, though.

School time is school time.
 
Alcoholic9 on 10-19-2006 at 01:34 PM said:
That's pretty much how I feel about the Religions. A better title for "The Bible" and "The Koran" would probably be "Guidebook on How to Create a Civilized Society."

Whoever originally came up with the idea was definetly a smart mofo. How do you stop all the stealing, raping, killing that the "strong" are commiting against the "weak?" Let's tell them all that they'll go to Hell after they die. Heaven works the other way. How do you keep the poor and sick and suffering or whatever from just giving up and killing themselves? Tell them all that Paradise awaits them after they die (but if they kill themselves they'll go to Hell with all the bad people.) ;)

When you really get to the heart of it, every religion is based on the same exact idea. Take away all the prophets, the stories of good and evil, reincarnation, gods and devils, and all the other filler, and you're left with one basic idea. BE GOOD TO PEOPLE. It's the Golden Rule for every religion. I think if we all made being good to people our religion, we'd eliminate war, hunger, poverty, and the need for this debate.
 
Steve-o on 10-19-2006 at 03:05 PM said:
Yes, the situation is ridiculously simple. Public school time is not Bible time. Home time is Bible time. Church time is Bible time. After school, teachers off the clock, I'm a-ok with that being voluntary Bible time, if parents would rather someone else give that to their kids, instead of them. Why they would want someone else handling such a personal issue is beyond me, though.

School time is school time.

I seem to be having a hard time making myself understood today.

Let me try again.

I agree something like this should be handled at home. I agree it's a personal decision.

What I have a problem with is, the school teaching my kids that evolution and Darwinism is an absolute fact, without presenting the other side or possibility.

I just think that, to be fair, if they're gonna teach one side, they should be allowed to at least offer the other side. Which we used to be able to do, until the ACLU and their types decided it was their right to take away my rights and beliefs.

Sorry... guess I'm just in a crappy mood today.
 
I like the "we were dropped off on this planet by alien beings" theory a lot too. Be sure to get that one in.
 
dropKickMurphy on 10-19-2006 at 08:43 AM said:
Kids do say the damndest things...

When you think about it, the same question could be asked about the scientific version of the creation of the universe:
"Who lit the fuse on the 'Big Bang?'"

Yeah, it can be used to question any theory. The way I see it, it's just as likely or unlikely that we rose from the sea, grew limbs, and began walking upright without anything provoking it as it is that an almighty being with the power to create everything in the universe came into being without anything provoking it. Which can raise so many other potential ideologies. What if God was the product of evolution and we're all his/her creation? etc. etc.


Maybe it's a sign that my offsprings' brain is as twisted as my own, but he actually thought I had a good point. Which kinda surprised the hell out of me, because I wasn't quite sure there was any point....

Thanks for the story. Good read. The kids are much smarter than all of this stuff than we ever give 'em credit for. Maybe even smarter than us.
 
cka203 on 10-19-2006 at 03:14 PM said:
I seem to be having a hard time making myself understood today.

Let me try again.

I agree something like this should be handled at home. I agree it's a personal decision.

What I have a problem with is, the school teaching my kids that evolution and Darwinism is an absolute fact, without presenting the other side or possibility.

I just think that, to be fair, if they're gonna teach one side, they should be allowed to at least offer the other side. Which we used to be able to do, until the ACLU and their types decided it was their right to take away my rights and beliefs.

Sorry... guess I'm just in a crappy mood today.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I understood you just fine. :)

Which side do you want presented? Catholicisim, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism? Where is the scientific fact for any of these?

This is my understanding of the problem. I would have no problem with a class on RELIGION with no emphasis, positive or otherwise, on any particular one.

This IMO is the crux of the particular problem in this case. A PUBLIC school teaching one religion only, covering their asses by saying "it's voluntary!". Exclusion is still exclusion on PUBLIC school time.
No one is taking away your rights and beliefs. You just don't have the option to impose them on others in a government sponsored forum, using taxpayer dollars. In your home, church or private school, sure.
I need a chocolate chip cookie.
 
Re: Re: If it weren't for religion

aloyouis on 10-19-2006 at 01:21 AM said:
NOT! How can you try to talk about such an important issue whilst painting with a stupefying broad brush?


Lets see: Radical Muslims are religious and brainwashed so they kill each other (and everybody else) therefore all religious people are brainwashed?

Try this: You are a male and Hitler was a male therefore all males (including me) are murderous tyrants?

Please go back and read your post.... think for a moment...and repost.

Just because all religions are used to brainwash or control their subjects doesn't make them murderers. Read what the Bishop John Shelby Spong writes "The words of the Apostles Creed, and its later expansion known as the Nicene Creed, were fashioned inside a worldview that no longer exists. Indeed, it is quite alien to the world in which I live. The way reality was peceived when the Christian creeds were formulated has been obliterated by the expansion of knowledge." He goes on to say, "Instutional Christianity seems fearful of inquiry, fearful of freedom, fearful of knowledge--indeed, fearful of anything except its own repetitious propaganda, which has its origins in a world that none of us any longer inhabits."
 
Steve-o on 10-19-2006 at 03:21 PM said:
Thanks for the story. Good read. The kids are much smarter than all of this stuff than we ever give 'em credit for. Maybe even smarter than us.

No kidding.

Someday it will be scientifcally proven that the innocence of children is pure genious, corrupted by adults into stupidity.

Sigh.
 
cka203 on 10-19-2006 at 03:14 PM said:
I seem to be having a hard time making myself understood today.

Let me try again.

I agree something like this should be handled at home. I agree it's a personal decision.

What I have a problem with is, the school teaching my kids that evolution and Darwinism is an absolute fact, without presenting the other side or possibility.

I just think that, to be fair, if they're gonna teach one side, they should be allowed to at least offer the other side. Which we used to be able to do, until the ACLU and their types decided it was their right to take away my rights and beliefs.

Sorry... guess I'm just in a crappy mood today.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to a religious studies course in schools. But it has to be objective. It has to present all of the viewpoints with the same credibility. I took a religious studies course my first semester in college, and it was one of the best classes I took. It was taught by a Christian minister (what denomination, i have no idea), and he discussed Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, even Zoroastrianism with the same devotion as Christianity. That class was a model for the way that class should be taught. Unfortunately, I don't think many people are capable of pulling it off that way, and it definitely wasn't pulled off that way in this case in Indiana.
 
cka203 on 10-19-2006 at 02:14 PM said:
I seem to be having a hard time making myself understood today.

Let me try again.

I agree something like this should be handled at home. I agree it's a personal decision.

What I have a problem with is, the school teaching my kids that evolution and Darwinism is an absolute fact, without presenting the other side or possibility.

I just think that, to be fair, if they're gonna teach one side, they should be allowed to at least offer the other side. Which we used to be able to do, until the ACLU and their types decided it was their right to take away my rights and beliefs.


Public schools teach evolution, the church and family prensent the other side...

There you have it... Both sides presented.


And Steve-o... I think you've said it best so far. It's all about being a good person. Read the teachings of Buddha and they pretty much read like the Ten Commandments.

Like I said... Get rid of the middle men, and get to the heart of it. Be a good person. Be compassionate. Be giving. Don't tell others how to live their lives if you don't want them telling you how to live yours.
 
Steve-o on 10-19-2006 at 03:28 PM said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to a religious studies course in schools. But it has to be objective. It has to present all of the viewpoints with the same credibility. I took a religious studies course my first semester in college, and it was one of the best classes I took. It was taught by a Christian minister (what denomination, i have no idea), and he discussed Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, even Zoroastrianism with the same devotion as Christianity. That class was a model for the way that class should be taught. Unfortunately, I don't think many people are capable of pulling it off that way, and it definitely wasn't pulled off that way in this case in Indiana.

Absolutely. I bet it was fascinating.
 
RavenB on 10-19-2006 at 02:27 PM said:
No kidding.

Someday it will be scientifcally proven that the innocence of children is pure genious, corrupted by adults into stupidity.

Sigh.

Actually, one of my favorite quotes ( I guess I'm in a quoting mood today :shrug: ) is kind of along those lines.

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.


Children are brainwashed and corrupted, by their parents, by church, by school. They are shoved full of other peoples' thoughts and beliefs.

It's amazing that any child could come through all that, and actually still develop their own ideas, but most do.

There's a miracle for you. ;)
 
when I heard a teach say " dear God help me throuh this day" I laughed, He/She should not use that saying correct? or "Lord Help Me" when a Kid says something stupid - again not the correct response but both make a point.

I have a faith, I know it, I enjoy it the way I want to and could care less about what others believe nor should I care.

Let them teach something at school that in a generic way stating many people around the word believe in a higher being while another fraction believe in evolution explaining both without showing a preference to either belief. until that day neither should be preached.

I also fail to see the problem with exposing children to different religions, my kids have been to Church in at least 4 different types of faiths and I explain the best I can to a 3 and 5 year old that each is a little different but we all believe in God (or a higher being if you will) and that everyone read a book and understood it a little differently.

As they get older I am debating if I want to expose them to only one religion and become active members of the catholic church or not. My 5 y.o. Daughter seems to want to go to church so I need to decide shortly but many of you know my feelings towards some of their rules on membership
 
mgoblue101415 on 10-19-2006 at 03:31 PM said:
And Steve-o... I think you've said it best so far. It's all about being a good person. Read the teachings of Buddha and they pretty much read like the Ten Commandments.

Yeah, I think it's the best philosophy. And I do think that if you follow it, die, and meet a God face to face, no matter what face he's wearing... I can't believe God would be vain enough to say "I made you, you were a good person, but you didn't believe, so..."
 
Let them teach something at school that in a generic way stating many people around the word believe in a higher being while another fraction believe in evolution explaining both without showing a preference to either belief. until that day neither should be preached.

wuv

Exactly!

Why can't we all be more like Mikie?
 
grogsox on 10-19-2006 at 03:17 PM said:
I like the "we were dropped off on this planet by alien beings" theory a lot too. Be sure to get that one in.

That is not a far fetched theory. Some day this planet will end and people will be looking for another place to live. It may take 4 billion years but it will happen.
 
Just a few comments on some things people have said:

1. Why shouldn't the PUBLIC get to decide what is taught in a PUBLIC school? If the people want to have a Bible class, but 1 person doesn't, why should that 1 person get to tell everyone else what to do? If you don't want your kid to go to that class, they don't have to. If you don't want them to spend an hour without any instruction (uh, study hall?), then put them in a different school.

2. If I was in an islamic country, and there was a class for studying the koran, and I had the choice to either be in that class, or have what is pretty much a study hall, I'd either take the study hall, or I'd find a school that better suited my needs. After all, I'm in an islamic country, and that's what they all believe, and that's what they all want, so who am I to tell them they can't do it? Hell, I might even go to the class, as long as it doesn't force me to believe in Islam or worship Allah. It could be an interesting educational experience, if you just view it as an opportunity to learn about another religion rather than an attempt to convert you.

3. Perhaps the best way to settle the whole creation vs evolution debate would be to, when you get to the point where you're going to teach the kids about how we came to exist, you can spend a week or 2 giving them an overview of all the different theories. Say, "Most people believe in either Evolution or Creation", and then teach them what both of those are, and then say "here are some other ideas people have about this subject", and then you can teach them about the "we were dropped off on this planet by aliens" theory, or whatever.
 
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