The age of the Pat is NOT over. The time of the Chief...has NOT begun.

He won't be a Free Agent. He'll get tagged and he's already stated he's fine with that.

I don't care what he says. No player is fine getting tagged when they know just one play can be career ending. At the end of the season, probably Sunday night, he'll start to listen to his agent. They all do.
 
Reid has been making playoffs and winning tons of games without an elite QB for years. Now he has an elite QB.



This is just the beginning. Wait till Mahomes actually gets a few years under his belt. He is only 23 years old for crying out loud.



What if he becomes another QB who is good enough to make the playoffs but loses because his D is old and he doesn’t have his weapons anymore. For instance he loses Hunt and he goes idk 3-3 in that span. Wait until he loses another key player. Can’t sustain excellence when the stacks are against you to pay everybody. They can pay max dollars and lose the offensive line. How do you pass when you’re being pressured? And if you don’t believe me look at Wilson now or look at Dak


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What in hell is going on here? Are these Chefs fans already getting their reservations in order for the super bowl? I guess they haven't seen the way Fat Boy runs things down there. Start out hot and then shit the bed in December. This is not a new story

LOL, Nice try!
 
What if he becomes another QB who is good enough to make the playoffs but loses because his D is old and he doesn’t have his weapons anymore. For instance he loses Hunt and he goes idk 3-3 in that span. Wait until he loses another key player. Can’t sustain excellence when the stacks are against you to pay everybody. They can pay max dollars and lose the offensive line. How do you pass when you’re being pressured? And if you don’t believe me look at Wilson now or look at Dak


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He took an incredibly banged up defense that was last in the league statistically to a 1 seed.

He's one of three players in NFL history to throw for 50 tds and 5k yards, and he did it in his first season as a starter.

Pretty sure he'll be fine.
 
Oh? In 2011 Aaron Rodgers set the record for single season passer rating, and it wasn't close. He led his team to 14 wins and the #1 seed, was the runaway MVP. Since then, he:
- hasn't won the superbowl (including not winning it that year)
- Has never equaled or come close to that level of performance
- Has had worse and worse finishes, including missing the playoffs twice and a losing record this year.
- Has gotten a very talented, well regarded, Super Bowl winning coach fired (one with a better win loss record than Reid btw)
- Has demonstrated repeatedly that he's an insufferable asshole and a bit of locker room cancer

Having a great year doesn't guarantee *anything* as far as the future goes. You don't find out much about a guy when times are good and he's on his rookie contract. You've got 2 more years under his rookie contract (no way they hold out until the end of the 5th and risk free agency), so 3 chances including this year to get it done while he's cheap. The chiefs team 4 years from now will look very different from its current one.

And Andy Reid has had success before, with Philly. This isn't even his best year, that would be when he went 13-3 in Philly and made the Super Bowl, and lost. The next year he went 6-10. Never equaled that high water mark, and eventually got himself fired. What makes you think this time around is going to be different, or that your 60 year old head coach is going to stick around another 15 years?

You are counting a Lot of chickens, which not only haven't hatched yet, they aren't even eggs yet. The future will hold what it holds, but you had best not fail to savor this run, as in reality there are Zero guarantees another one like it will occur.
 
You are counting a Lot of chickens, which not only haven't hatched yet, they aren't even eggs yet.


This is what happens when perennial losers/chokers get a brief whiff of success that they're not used to having. They overreact badly and thump their chests because they've been desperate for years and don't know how to handle it or show perspective. That's true no matter what happens Sunday.



Or they're just trolling assholes. Both kinda look the same, frankly.
 
I think what people are trying to say if that even if Mahomes has a great career, his statistical dominance this year doesn’t guarantee anything, especially championships. I agree that he will likely have good output in future seasons (he’s not Matt Flynn) but putting up good numbers and winning aren’t guaranteed to come together.

Just ask Dan Marino.


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What if he becomes another QB who is good enough to make the playoffs but loses because his D is old and he doesn’t have his weapons anymore. For instance he loses Hunt and he goes idk 3-3 in that span. Wait until he loses another key player. Can’t sustain excellence when the stacks are against you to pay everybody. They can pay max dollars and lose the offensive line. How do you pass when you’re being pressured? And if you don’t believe me look at Wilson now or look at Dak


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He took an incredibly banged up defense that was last in the league statistically to a 1 seed.

He's one of three players in NFL history to throw for 50 tds and 5k yards, and he did it in his first season as a starter.

Pretty sure he'll be fine.

Pretty sure you missed the point 305 made. Let's suppose you're the GM of the Chiefs.

Your 2018 season has gone swimmingly because of a number of draft choices from 2-4 yrs ago that worked out sensationally as well a few 1 year deals on aging but trusted veterans. It's 2019 now and you have some important decisions to make regarding ERFAs, RFAs and UFAs.

ERFAs, 6: Generally a bargain to bring back so most teams do if the player has shown some ability.

K Harrison Butker. Here's a guy you have to think about giving a long term deal at $3-4M/ if he'll take it. The alternative is to sign him to a 1 year prove it again deal risking that his price goes even higher.

The other 5 ERFAs are roster roundout bodies you may as well keep (cheap) knowing they may not make it out of training camp but, hey, you may find another keeper.

RFAs, 2: This group usually requires a little more thought than the ERFAs. By now you know the players who can help the team win. Your job is to decide if they are worth the money they'll cost.

LB Terrance Smith. Showed good ability and contributed until his ACL tear in 2018. Are you putting a tender on him? A low tender or a high tender?
S Jordan Lucas. A guy whose game snaps have tumbled so he should be cheap.
[C Austin Reiter. This decision has been made due to C Mitch Morse's injury history; Reiter signed his new contract last month with a modest $700K bump/year.]

FAs, 16: Now we're getting to the heart of the matter because these players have been around and showed ability. These decisions will be harder since other teams can compete to pay them & there's always 1 team who will outbid you.
Edge Dee Ford. Oh shit, this is getting real now. He's a great asset but he's injured frequently. Do you tag him or try to extend him? Either way he'll get a significant bump in salary as he'll be in demand. $8.5-$9M/. Ouch.

DE Allen Bailey. 8 years with the Chiefs. Productive player & quality depth. 30 years old though. Short term deal or not?

TE Demetrius Harris. A jag TE but he's been a Chief for 5 years and has had decent production behind Kelce. Knows the system but he's a weed offender. 27 years old & entering his prime. Paid $2M/ the last few years. Is he worth a $1M/ increase (33.3%)?

WR Chris Conley. A jag WR stuck behind Hill, Watkins and Kelce as receivers. 2015 3rd round pick (76). Achilles injury in 2017. Never lived up to his promise. 61% catch rate and has had 5 career drops all in 2018. 4.35 40 though and a worthy back up. meh. 5 career TDs; 4 were this year. Easily replaced production but the kid is young and could break out if given the chance. He may want out. His $750K/ salary could double or triple in the open market.

C Mitch Morse. Another 2015 draft pick. Ranked 6th best C. Concussion and injury history. Solid when healthy. Is Reiter ready? Morse is due a healthy bump from his $1.1M/ rookie deal even if he takes a discount to center to Mahomes.

CB Steven Nelson. Yet another 2015 3rd rnd pick (98). Nelson has shown promise and ability with flashes of star potential. PFF's 28th ranked CB and he's KC's best CB. (He'd be the Pats 4th best, btw.) He's playing on a cheap 4yr/$3M rookie deal. 1 concussion and a hammy. He's a favorite for other teams to target but he has weathered the storm. Above avg. 25 year old CB who should get better. He was trade bait last year when Peters was traded. Andy Reid is damn glad now that Veach didn't trade him. He should get a huge raise in FA - $3M-$4M/. Whatcha think? I think Veach lets him walk at great risk to your secondary which is already thin.
S Ron Parker, CB Orlando Scandrick. Aging vets, jags at this point. meh.
But S and CB are both positions that need to be addressed.
WR DeAnthony Thomas. A promising 26 yr old PR/WR who suffered a broken leg in wk 5 and was put on IR. He signed a modest 1 yr FA deal that paid him $900K last yr after being drafted by the Chiefs in 2014.

RB Spencer Ware. 2017 knee injury and 2018 hammy wk 14. $1.5M in 2018. Made some plays after Hunt was released. Another position Veach will have to address. May not make it out of TC if he's re-signed since

RB Damien Williams is doing some work but he's also a FA. It keeps piling up, eh? Keep 1? Keep both? Veach will have some work to do to sign a starting caliber RB through the draft, FA or via trade.
4 other meh backups. OL Jordan Devey is a former Pat who is a career backup. G Jeff Allen is another jag backup who never lived up to his 2nd round (Chiefs, 2012) draft status. Spent 2016-2017 on the Texans and was placed on IR with concussions; released in July, picked up by the Chiefs in Oct. No thanks. OLB Frank Zombo. Who?

All these decisions are tough to make. The Chiefs will lose some of them and have to pay more for the ones they keep. Good players will be lost.

But the story gets more interesting in 2020 when 19 FAs will hit the market. WR Tyreek Hill is the big name here and he's expected to command $16M yearly. http://www.optimumscouting.com/nfl-free-agent-contract-projections
The cap doesn't go up enough to cover Hill's bump and you have the other 18 to worry about.


In 2021 Mahomes' 5th year option will cost the Chiefs about $25M.
Patrick Mahomes' fifth-year option will be expensive - Chiefs Wire

In 2022 Mahomes' FA contract will surely be higher than Aaron Rodgers' contract which is 4y/$134M with $98M guaranteed. Paying that much to 1 player puts a stranglehold on teams when trying to build a quality team around him.

Paying Mahomes and Hill in 2022 would cost the Chiefs an additional $45M for the very same players you have right now. Which 10 starters would you release right now to have the cap to pay them?


This is why the Patriots run in the salary cap era is held in such high regard around the league. No other team has been able to maintain excellence because of the cap. There's always a team willing to pay your FA more money. You lose great players every damn year.
 
I think what people are trying to say if that even if Mahomes has a great career, his statistical dominance this year doesn’t guarantee anything, especially championships. I agree that he will likely have good output in future seasons (he’s not Matt Flynn) but putting up good numbers and winning aren’t guaranteed to come together.

Just ask Dan Marino.


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Marino is the obvious example that gives me pause about Mahomes winning multiple SB titles because he (like Mahomes) had a great second season and a legendary HC. Ultimately i think Mahomes will end up with multiple simply because he is so freakishly talented and Reid has shown that he knows how to create great offenses without an elite QB. On top of that the Chiefs have stable, highly supportive ownership. Is it POSSIBLE he doesnt win multiple superbowls? Sure. Is it likely? Seems unlikely to me. Mahomes talent level is too high and there are too many peices in place.
 
That is an outstanding post with great research. Thank you.
 
Marino is the obvious example that gives me pause about Mahomes winning multiple SB titles because he (like Mahomes) had a great second season and a legendary HC. Ultimately i think Mahomes will end up with multiple simply because he is so freakishly talented and Reid has shown that he knows how to create great offenses without an elite QB. On top of that the Chiefs have stable, highly supportive ownership. Is it POSSIBLE he doesnt win multiple superbowls? Sure. Is it likely? Seems unlikely to me. Mahomes talent level is too high and there are too many peices in place.

A whaaaaat? :shrug_n:

Guy is 20 - 18 in the post season with exactly zero Super Bowl wins.

But yeah, he's a lot like Don Shula. :huh:
 
Oh? In 2011 Aaron Rodgers set the record for single season passer rating, and it wasn't close. He led his team to 14 wins and the #1 seed, was the runaway MVP. Since then, he:
- hasn't won the superbowl (including not winning it that year)
- Has never equaled or come close to that level of performance
- Has had worse and worse finishes, including missing the playoffs twice and a losing record this year.
- Has gotten a very talented, well regarded, Super Bowl winning coach fired (one with a better win loss record than Reid btw)
- Has demonstrated repeatedly that he's an insufferable asshole and a bit of locker room cancer

Having a great year doesn't guarantee *anything* as far as the future goes. You don't find out much about a guy when times are good and he's on his rookie contract. You've got 2 more years under his rookie contract (no way they hold out until the end of the 5th and risk free agency), so 3 chances including this year to get it done while he's cheap. The chiefs team 4 years from now will look very different from its current one.

And Andy Reid has had success before, with Philly. This isn't even his best year, that would be when he went 13-3 in Philly and made the Super Bowl, and lost. The next year he went 6-10. Never equaled that high water mark, and eventually got himself fired. What makes you think this time around is going to be different, or that your 60 year old head coach is going to stick around another 15 years?

You are counting a Lot of chickens, which not only haven't hatched yet, they aren't even eggs yet. The future will hold what it holds, but you had best not fail to savor this run, as in reality there are Zero guarantees another one like it will occur.

Trying to make this point to Chiefs fans is a lost issue. But I 100 percent agree with you. I said in another thread that Raiders fans literally thought Carr was the next Tom Brady two seasons ago (again he was very good that season with only 5 or 6 picks all season) and his completion percentage was very good as well. As with a lot of quarterbacks that fell through prettt quick and most Raiders fans want him off the team. I wouldn’t be surprised if Aaron Rodgers has another bad season or two, Packers fans will probably start saying “let’s play a young QB” much like the Giants fans with Eli.

It’s all well and good if you can have a great first season like Dak, Kaepernick and those guys. But it’s an entirely different story to keep that play up for seasons to come. I would never wish anything bad on a player so don’t take this the wrong way, but a big part of me wants Mahomes to be average next season just to bring these Chiefs fans back down to Earth. I’ve never seen anything quite like it with these fans. I guess that’s what happens when you have been irrelevant for so long and are desperate to win a Super Bowl.
 
A whaaaaat? :shrug_n:

Guy is 20 - 18 in the post season with exactly zero Super Bowl wins.

But yeah, he's a lot like Don Shula. :huh:

TBF - Shula is 19-17 in the playoffs, although he won 2 Super Bowls, 2 NFL Championships, and went to 6 Super Bowls total.

Also fuck Don Shula. :coffee:
 
Marino is the obvious example that gives me pause about Mahomes winning multiple SB titles because he (like Mahomes) had a great second season and a legendary HC. Ultimately i think Mahomes will end up with multiple simply because he is so freakishly talented and Reid has shown that he knows how to create great offenses without an elite QB. On top of that the Chiefs have stable, highly supportive ownership. Is it POSSIBLE he doesnt win multiple superbowls? Sure. Is it likely? Seems unlikely to me. Mahomes talent level is too high and there are too many peices in place.


I just think you're making too many conclusions based on one year of production. History is full of too many guys who flash briefly and then regress because other teams get enough film on them (this often doesn't happen immediately and there's lag time), or they don't continue to improve for whatever reason, or they get injured, or the team around them regresses and they consequently don't look as good.


"Pieces in place" can go away sooner than you think in the FA/Salary Cap environment. Ask the Seahawks. Still good with a proven, talented clutch QB (who won once and almost twice), but their name players at other positions have left and they're not seriously threatening for the SB at the moment. There's no guarantee Wilson will ever win again, despite the fact that he's already won and performs well in big spots.


There's too many unknowns, and Chiefs fans seem WAY too excited WAY too early.
 
He took an incredibly banged up defense that was last in the league statistically to a 1 seed.

He's one of three players in NFL history to throw for 50 tds and 5k yards, and he did it in his first season as a starter.

Pretty sure he'll be fine.

so...he did what the 2011 Pats basically did? :shrug_n:

You guys are so cute with your desperation to believe that you're the ones who are going to end the Pats run. The Ravens thought that. The Raiders thought that. The only team that's been able to put a significant dent in it was the Broncos...and look what happened there when it was time to pay everybody.
 
Pretty sure you missed the point 305 made. Let's suppose you're the GM of the Chiefs.

Your 2018 season has gone swimmingly because of a number of draft choices from 2-4 yrs ago that worked out sensationally as well a few 1 year deals on aging but trusted veterans. It's 2019 now and you have some important decisions to make regarding ERFAs, RFAs and UFAs.

ERFAs, 6: Generally a bargain to bring back so most teams do if the player has shown some ability.

K Harrison Butker. Here's a guy you have to think about giving a long term deal at $3-4M/ if he'll take it. The alternative is to sign him to a 1 year prove it again deal risking that his price goes even higher.



The other 5 ERFAs are roster roundout bodies you may as well keep (cheap) knowing they may not make it out of training camp but, hey, you may find another keeper.

RFAs, 2: This group usually requires a little more thought than the ERFAs. By now you know the players who can help the team win. Your job is to decide if they are worth the money they'll cost.

LB Terrance Smith. Showed good ability and contributed until his ACL tear in 2018. Are you putting a tender on him? A low tender or a high tender?
S Jordan Lucas. A guy whose game snaps have tumbled so he should be cheap.
[C Austin Reiter. This decision has been made due to C Mitch Morse's injury history; Reiter signed his new contract last month with a modest $700K bump/year.]

FAs, 16: Now we're getting to the heart of the matter because these players have been around and showed ability. These decisions will be harder since other teams can compete to pay them & there's always 1 team who will outbid you.
Edge Dee Ford. Oh shit, this is getting real now. He's a great asset but he's injured frequently. Do you tag him or try to extend him? Either way he'll get a significant bump in salary as he'll be in demand. $8.5-$9M/. Ouch.

DE Allen Bailey. 8 years with the Chiefs. Productive player & quality depth. 30 years old though. Short term deal or not?

TE Demetrius Harris. A jag TE but he's been a Chief for 5 years and has had decent production behind Kelce. Knows the system but he's a weed offender. 27 years old & entering his prime. Paid $2M/ the last few years. Is he worth a $1M/ increase (33.3%)?

WR Chris Conley. A jag WR stuck behind Hill, Watkins and Kelce as receivers. 2015 3rd round pick (76). Achilles injury in 2017. Never lived up to his promise. 61% catch rate and has had 5 career drops all in 2018. 4.35 40 though and a worthy back up. meh. 5 career TDs; 4 were this year. Easily replaced production but the kid is young and could break out if given the chance. He may want out. His $750K/ salary could double or triple in the open market.

C Mitch Morse. Another 2015 draft pick. Ranked 6th best C. Concussion and injury history. Solid when healthy. Is Reiter ready? Morse is due a healthy bump from his $1.1M/ rookie deal even if he takes a discount to center to Mahomes.

CB Steven Nelson. Yet another 2015 3rd rnd pick (98). Nelson has shown promise and ability with flashes of star potential. PFF's 28th ranked CB and he's KC's best CB. (He'd be the Pats 4th best, btw.) He's playing on a cheap 4yr/$3M rookie deal. 1 concussion and a hammy. He's a favorite for other teams to target but he has weathered the storm. Above avg. 25 year old CB who should get better. He was trade bait last year when Peters was traded. Andy Reid is damn glad now that Veach didn't trade him. He should get a huge raise in FA - $3M-$4M/. Whatcha think? I think Veach lets him walk at great risk to your secondary which is already thin.
S Ron Parker, CB Orlando Scandrick. Aging vets, jags at this point. meh.
But S and CB are both positions that need to be addressed.
WR DeAnthony Thomas. A promising 26 yr old PR/WR who suffered a broken leg in wk 5 and was put on IR. He signed a modest 1 yr FA deal that paid him $900K last yr after being drafted by the Chiefs in 2014.

RB Spencer Ware. 2017 knee injury and 2018 hammy wk 14. $1.5M in 2018. Made some plays after Hunt was released. Another position Veach will have to address. May not make it out of TC if he's re-signed since

RB Damien Williams is doing some work but he's also a FA. It keeps piling up, eh? Keep 1? Keep both? Veach will have some work to do to sign a starting caliber RB through the draft, FA or via trade.
4 other meh backups. OL Jordan Devey is a former Pat who is a career backup. G Jeff Allen is another jag backup who never lived up to his 2nd round (Chiefs, 2012) draft status. Spent 2016-2017 on the Texans and was placed on IR with concussions; released in July, picked up by the Chiefs in Oct. No thanks. OLB Frank Zombo. Who?

All these decisions are tough to make. The Chiefs will lose some of them and have to pay more for the ones they keep. Good players will be lost.

But the story gets more interesting in 2020 when 19 FAs will hit the market. WR Tyreek Hill is the big name here and he's expected to command $16M yearly. http://www.optimumscouting.com/nfl-free-agent-contract-projections
The cap doesn't go up enough to cover Hill's bump and you have the other 18 to worry about.


In 2021 Mahomes' 5th year option will cost the Chiefs about $25M.
Patrick Mahomes' fifth-year option will be expensive - Chiefs Wire

In 2022 Mahomes' FA contract will surely be higher than Aaron Rodgers' contract which is 4y/$134M with $98M guaranteed. Paying that much to 1 player puts a stranglehold on teams when trying to build a quality team around him.

Paying Mahomes and Hill in 2022 would cost the Chiefs an additional $45M for the very same players you have right now. Which 10 starters would you release right now to have the cap to pay them?


This is why the Patriots run in the salary cap era is held in such high regard around the league. No other team has been able to maintain excellence because of the cap. There's always a team willing to pay your FA more money. You lose great players every damn year.

There’s no question that the team will have many many difficult decisions over the next several years. Thats football. I dont see any team replicating what the Pats have done over the past 20 years. It will look different.


The point here is if you were guage the odds of every team in the league right now and determine which team has the best odds to win multiple championships then the organization most likely to win multiple would be Kansas City followed by LAR.
 
There’s no question that the team will have many many difficult decisions over the next several years. Thats football. I dont see any team replicating what the Pats have done over the past 20 years. It will look different.


The point here is if you were guage the odds of every team in the league right now and determine which team has the best odds to win multiple championships then the organization most likely to win multiple would be Kansas City followed by LAR.

not unless they pay some serious attention to that defense. You know it as well as I do.
 
A whaaaaat? :shrug_n:

Guy is 20 - 18 in the post season with exactly zero Super Bowl wins.

But yeah, he's a lot like Don Shula. :huh:
I hate Shula, Reid is on the Denny's all you can eat buffet wall, and I hate Shula

TBF - Shula is 19-17 in the playoffs, although he won 2 Super Bowls, 2 NFL Championships, and went to 6 Super Bowls total.

Also fuck Don Shula. :coffee:
a million times this
 
The point here is if you were guage the odds of every team in the league right now and determine which team has the best odds to win multiple championships then the organization most likely to win multiple would be Kansas City followed by LAR.

No one's going to take that bet before one of them has won one.

Who's to say Arians doesn't go to Tampa with a decent core in place, and rip off back-to-back rings?

Who's to say the Raiders don't hit on all their high draft picks the next couple of years, and turn into a juggernaut when they move to Las Vegas?

Hell, the best odds of a team winning Multiple Championships right now is the Patriots. 2 in 3 years, 3 Super Bowls in 4 years, and yet another AFCCG to get there again. Any other answer is wrong, and trolling. :coffee:
 
You guys are so cute with your desperation to believe that you're the ones who are going to end the Pats run. The Ravens thought that. The Raiders thought that. The only team that's been able to put a significant dent in it was the Broncos...and look what happened there when it was time to pay everybody.


And what does the "end of the run" mean? So if they lose Sunday that's the "end" because they didn't make it to the SB three years in a row? Yeesh. Brady still won MVP twelve months ago. They're not fitting him for a casket.



They went NINE years without winning starting in '05. Was that the "end"? This wouldn't be any 'end" no matter what happens and whatever the Chiefs do or don't do, because you can bet they'll be right back here next year with another excellent opportunity.
 
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