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too complicated.
pats balls started at 12.5
colts started at 13.5
is the difference that great now?
The Deflategate stupid argument thread
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pats balls started at 12.5
colts started at 13.5
is the difference that great now?
Hawg73
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When I was about 100 pages into the Wells Report there were times when I questioned why I should bother going any further.
I know why it was worthwhile now -- it was so that I could feel as confident as I do that there isn't a single person who buys the NFL's argument that I don't feel I could Kessler into submission with sheer, irrefutable facts.
Kessler is now a verb. It basically means:
I know why it was worthwhile now -- it was so that I could feel as confident as I do that there isn't a single person who buys the NFL's argument that I don't feel I could Kessler into submission with sheer, irrefutable facts.
Kessler is now a verb. It basically means:
Giant Octopodes
Well-known member
Just some basic facts for you to consider.
1) The Colts balls were far less exposed to the environmental conditions, both because they were in an enclosed bag vs the open bag the Pats were using, and because they had seen less use. As such, the Colts balls were not wet, generally, while the Pats were. The Pats balls, being wet, would have evaporative cooling to retard their return to normal pressure readings. This, combined with the fact they were measured first, is why they show lower readings than the Colts, relative to their starting points. I will refer you to page 159 of the Wells report, which reads "If the Logo Gauge was used pre-game, the Patriots average halftime measurement will match the pressures predicted by the transient curves (with the Colts halftime measurements also matching the predicted range)".
2) On October 6th, during the game against the Jets, the balls were inflated to 16 PSI. This was a home game, so McNally had access to the balls. Thus, unless you believe the Refs inflated them to 16.5, he was not deflating them as of that time period. Furthermore, Jastremski, who was very open about texting regarding things he should not have been doing (such as taking team gear for handouts to McNally to supplement his income), texted at that time that the balls were supposed to be at 13 PSI. The testimony of multiple people including the refs is that at that time they were being inflated to 12.8, in actuality. So there is no reason to believe there was an inflation scheme in place before that time period. Both because a) the evidence does not match it (why would it have still been at 16?), b) The testimony doesn't match it (why would he lie about what he was setting it to in text messages he obviously didn't think anyone would ever see?), and c) the logic doesn't fit (why would they set it to 12.8 if their intent was to deflate it to an illegal level after the refs had them? Why not 12.5?)
As any deflation scheme would logically have by all rights begun After October 6th (that was when the behavior of the Pats changed regarding inflation levels and awareness, and Brady had just yelled at his guys for the balls being overinflated. Though active efforts to ensure the balls are in a legal inflation level are not evidence of a scheme to illegally deflate the balls, *if* a deflation scheme existed, that is when it would have started), any text messages between Jastremski and McNally before that time period cannot be referring to an ongoing deflation scheme. The "deflator" is from the April before that time period. It was when football season wasn't even ongoing. I don't know what they were referring to with that comment, but I *do* know that it is not an ongoing deflation scheme. I have no reason to doubt their testimony that it was in reference to weight loss efforts.
3) Brady met with Wells, they had their interview and Brady on the (terrible) advice of his Agent declined to turn over his phone. Wells, before all was said and done, indicated he had no need of the phone, the testimony was complete as is. Brady then *after* being told By Wells that the phone was not needed replaced his phone, apparently because it was broken, and he had been holding onto it all this time for the presumptive reason of having it available should it be needed. Imagine you have a broken phone, and there is an ongoing investigation. You are told they don't need your phone. Are you really saying you would not then go ahead and replace it? And are you really in the habit of hanging onto old broken electronics?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...da3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html
https://www.facebook.com/TomBrady/posts/956989441008873
Now, you can say the timing is still suspicious all you want, or that he should have hung onto his phone, or whatever else. But fundamentally, in regards to McNally and Jastremski, the two people with whom he would allegedly have been conspiring, we know from their phones no incriminating text messages were sent. They already had the phones, and he turned over all his phone logs to validate that what they had was complete information. NOTHING was ever sent to McNally, and they had all but 3 text messages sent between him and Jastremski, all of which contained absolutely nothing incriminating. As to the other personnel they wanted his text messages between, they similarly had their phones already, as all phones for non-CBA protected individuals (all staff and other team personnel) had already been turned over. People like to blast Brady for "expecting them to do his defense for him" by checking those people's phones, like it would be a big deal to do so, but they seem to miss that Only They COULD validate that information at that time! The people he sent the texts to didn't still have their phones, Wells et all did. They purported to only want to check communications with other Patriots personnel, so any phones they did not possess (his wife's or other individuals outside the organization) would be moot for a search anyway.
To sum:
1) Not just the drop in the Pats pressure, but the increased difference in measured pressure between the two team's balls are explained by science.
2) No Deflation scheme was present prior to October 6th, so there is no reason to believe "deflator" is in reference to a deflation scheme
3) Brady's phone being destroyed, in addition to making sense in relation to the timing presented, had zero impact on anything. Even had he been trying to cover something up, he would have failed, as they already had all the evidence it would present, and by the way, there was nothing incriminating on it.
1) The Colts balls were far less exposed to the environmental conditions, both because they were in an enclosed bag vs the open bag the Pats were using, and because they had seen less use. As such, the Colts balls were not wet, generally, while the Pats were. The Pats balls, being wet, would have evaporative cooling to retard their return to normal pressure readings. This, combined with the fact they were measured first, is why they show lower readings than the Colts, relative to their starting points. I will refer you to page 159 of the Wells report, which reads "If the Logo Gauge was used pre-game, the Patriots average halftime measurement will match the pressures predicted by the transient curves (with the Colts halftime measurements also matching the predicted range)".
2) On October 6th, during the game against the Jets, the balls were inflated to 16 PSI. This was a home game, so McNally had access to the balls. Thus, unless you believe the Refs inflated them to 16.5, he was not deflating them as of that time period. Furthermore, Jastremski, who was very open about texting regarding things he should not have been doing (such as taking team gear for handouts to McNally to supplement his income), texted at that time that the balls were supposed to be at 13 PSI. The testimony of multiple people including the refs is that at that time they were being inflated to 12.8, in actuality. So there is no reason to believe there was an inflation scheme in place before that time period. Both because a) the evidence does not match it (why would it have still been at 16?), b) The testimony doesn't match it (why would he lie about what he was setting it to in text messages he obviously didn't think anyone would ever see?), and c) the logic doesn't fit (why would they set it to 12.8 if their intent was to deflate it to an illegal level after the refs had them? Why not 12.5?)
As any deflation scheme would logically have by all rights begun After October 6th (that was when the behavior of the Pats changed regarding inflation levels and awareness, and Brady had just yelled at his guys for the balls being overinflated. Though active efforts to ensure the balls are in a legal inflation level are not evidence of a scheme to illegally deflate the balls, *if* a deflation scheme existed, that is when it would have started), any text messages between Jastremski and McNally before that time period cannot be referring to an ongoing deflation scheme. The "deflator" is from the April before that time period. It was when football season wasn't even ongoing. I don't know what they were referring to with that comment, but I *do* know that it is not an ongoing deflation scheme. I have no reason to doubt their testimony that it was in reference to weight loss efforts.
3) Brady met with Wells, they had their interview and Brady on the (terrible) advice of his Agent declined to turn over his phone. Wells, before all was said and done, indicated he had no need of the phone, the testimony was complete as is. Brady then *after* being told By Wells that the phone was not needed replaced his phone, apparently because it was broken, and he had been holding onto it all this time for the presumptive reason of having it available should it be needed. Imagine you have a broken phone, and there is an ongoing investigation. You are told they don't need your phone. Are you really saying you would not then go ahead and replace it? And are you really in the habit of hanging onto old broken electronics?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...da3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html
https://www.facebook.com/TomBrady/posts/956989441008873
Now, you can say the timing is still suspicious all you want, or that he should have hung onto his phone, or whatever else. But fundamentally, in regards to McNally and Jastremski, the two people with whom he would allegedly have been conspiring, we know from their phones no incriminating text messages were sent. They already had the phones, and he turned over all his phone logs to validate that what they had was complete information. NOTHING was ever sent to McNally, and they had all but 3 text messages sent between him and Jastremski, all of which contained absolutely nothing incriminating. As to the other personnel they wanted his text messages between, they similarly had their phones already, as all phones for non-CBA protected individuals (all staff and other team personnel) had already been turned over. People like to blast Brady for "expecting them to do his defense for him" by checking those people's phones, like it would be a big deal to do so, but they seem to miss that Only They COULD validate that information at that time! The people he sent the texts to didn't still have their phones, Wells et all did. They purported to only want to check communications with other Patriots personnel, so any phones they did not possess (his wife's or other individuals outside the organization) would be moot for a search anyway.
To sum:
1) Not just the drop in the Pats pressure, but the increased difference in measured pressure between the two team's balls are explained by science.
2) No Deflation scheme was present prior to October 6th, so there is no reason to believe "deflator" is in reference to a deflation scheme
3) Brady's phone being destroyed, in addition to making sense in relation to the timing presented, had zero impact on anything. Even had he been trying to cover something up, he would have failed, as they already had all the evidence it would present, and by the way, there was nothing incriminating on it.
No double-think required. The NFL stripped NE of draft picks, changed rules for crybaby coaches, lied and denied all through DG, and ran faulty headlines nonstop in an attempt to distract NE from a SB victory. How can we not be proud the team overcame all those obstacles and BS?
He may come off as being intelligent but as Lisa already pointed out, he's anything but...
BS
A NFL football weighs 14 to 15 ounces (400 to 430 grams).
He never read the wells report to begin with, if he did, he didn't understand it:shrug_n:
BS
The question that should be asked is if all things are equal how come the Colts balls measured higher then the expected PSI level determined by the ideal gas law. :shrug_n:
IDGL predicted the Pats balls should have measured 11.3 PSI the actually average measurement of the Pats Balls was 11.32 PSI a difference of .02 PSI right on target.
IDGL predicted the Colts balls should have measured 11.8 PSI the actually average measurement of the Colts balls was 12.53 PSI a difference of .73 PSI well above the predicted IDGL. The Colts must have cheated, or the balls were measured last and had time to equilibrate :shrug_n:
So the balls neither dropped 1 to 1.5 LBs since then your right the ball would have been extremely mushing and everyone would have noticed. Nor did they drop between a 1.0 to 1.50 PSI more the the Colts balls did the Colts balls had time to warm up before they were measured:shrug_n:
~Dee~
TheBSPolice
Active member
I will politely decline an education from someone who actually sees a correlation between the Salem Witch Trials and Deflategate.
For this, I apologize, I should not have assumed that you were as reactionary as the other Patriot fans I've seen commenting on the matter. In my defense, you are the first Patriot fan I've seen who has taken this stance, but I still shouldn't have automatically placed you with the others.
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actually most pats fans want Manning investigated but understand why he did it, he wanted to play again.
I'm completely baffled that there's anyone left who accepts the Wells Report as a credible investigation. But then again, there are people who voted for Sarah Palin. :shrug:
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woe hey don't bring Sarah into this. I would vote for her, McCain, not.
PatsFanLisa
No filter
So, are you saying the massive number of hours that Al-Jazeera put into their documentary with a second informant coming forward, with a MLB player in the piece, with it coming out that Dale Guyer of the famous Guyer Institute has been associated with investors fraud and Ponzi schemes, who received massive amounts of money from an brokerage firm that was indicted and convicted for bilking investors and then passed that money to Guyer, who runs a snake oil business, that Manning went to an "anti-aging clinic" and stated so after hours, and whose wife received shipments of an illegal substance at his various residences while he was an active NFL player, that Al-Jazeera is not a credible news source? Is that what you're saying?
Because there are a whole lot of dots there that lead right up to Manning was shooting up because his family and he are good friends with Dale Guyer, have gone on vacation with him and posted photos, and that Al-Jazeera nailed it.
But if you take your head of the sand for a minute, you might actually see something, so you're better off keeping it buried if that helps you sleep at night.
ROFL
TheBSPolice
Active member
Wow, for people who are tired of this discussion and who don't want to talk about it you've sure got a lot to say.
Look, I've already said that I don't believe there is 100% proof that the balls were tampered with, and even if they were, that I don't think Belichick was aware.
While I have admitted that I'm suspicious based on what I've read, I don't think that's unwarranted, given that a full investigation, scientific research from multiple sources, and what will be multiple court hearings have been involved. I certainly don't think my suspicions, again based on evidence, warrant the personal attacks many of you like to heap on anyone who disagrees with you.
As I stated above, I will review the provided materials and consider them carefully with all of the other information that I have seen.
I have the page bookmarked, and I'll be reading every word and considering it all very carefully. I am at work however, and I'm travelling this weekend, so it will take me some time. I would think waiting for me to read and evaluate before responding would be preferable to a knee jerk, unsubstantiated dismissal.
I actually already conceded that as a possible explanation earlier, SmahtyPants.
The air pressure loss from gauging is negligible and unlikely to responsible for the disparity, and I agree, it was illegal for the Colts to do it.
You do understand the "P" in "PSI" stands for "Pounds"? I was abbreviating because I, apparently mistakenly, took for granted that we all understood that air pressure is measured in Pounds per Square Inch. Were you incapable of reading my post with the words "per Square Inch" implied?
Look, I've already said that I don't believe there is 100% proof that the balls were tampered with, and even if they were, that I don't think Belichick was aware.
While I have admitted that I'm suspicious based on what I've read, I don't think that's unwarranted, given that a full investigation, scientific research from multiple sources, and what will be multiple court hearings have been involved. I certainly don't think my suspicions, again based on evidence, warrant the personal attacks many of you like to heap on anyone who disagrees with you.
As I stated above, I will review the provided materials and consider them carefully with all of the other information that I have seen.
These are the same people that cling to Brady "destroying" his cell phone as attempting to hide evidence.
I actually feel sorry for these people...life is hard enough, it's even harder when you're stupid. And THAT is epic level stupid.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/20/s...nfl-inquiry-into-deflated-footballs.html?_r=0
Sunday night was a smooth joy ride for the New England Patriots, with a 45-7 pounding of the Indianapolis Colts that propelled them into another Super Bowl. But Monday morning was a good deal bumpier, with the disclosure that the N.F.L. was investigating whether the Patriots used deflated footballs to gain an unfair advantage in Sunday’s game.
The game was played in the rain, and deflated balls would have been easier to grip in the wet weather. But Patriots quarterback Tom Brady, who completed 23 of 35 passes for 226 yards and moved the ball up and down the field with ease, was having none of it.
Asked about the accusation during his regular Monday appearance on the Boston radio station WEEI, Brady laughed it off.
“I think I’ve heard it all at this point,” Brady said. “Oh, God. It’s ridiculous.”
He went on to add: “That’s the last of my worries. I don’t even respond to stuff like this.”
Where's the angry denial, the indignant, defensive response ala Manning?
Where's Ari Fleischer?
Brady thought it was a joke. He was right.
Sunday night was a smooth joy ride for the New England Patriots, with a 45-7 pounding of the Indianapolis Colts that propelled them into another Super Bowl. But Monday morning was a good deal bumpier, with the disclosure that the N.F.L. was investigating whether the Patriots used deflated footballs to gain an unfair advantage in Sunday’s game.
The game was played in the rain, and deflated balls would have been easier to grip in the wet weather. But Patriots quarterback Tom Brady, who completed 23 of 35 passes for 226 yards and moved the ball up and down the field with ease, was having none of it.
Asked about the accusation during his regular Monday appearance on the Boston radio station WEEI, Brady laughed it off.
“I think I’ve heard it all at this point,” Brady said. “Oh, God. It’s ridiculous.”
He went on to add: “That’s the last of my worries. I don’t even respond to stuff like this.”
Where's the angry denial, the indignant, defensive response ala Manning?
Where's Ari Fleischer?
Brady thought it was a joke. He was right.
PatsFanLisa
No filter
Yeah, we sure do, after listening to a year of bullshit from morons who think Brady cheated, when there isn't one fvcking iota of evidence to back it up other than the bullshit that the NFL fed the masses.
SCIENCE, moron. Learn it.
---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------
And on top of it, the hypocrisy of fans of other teams who refuse to acknowledge the cheating that their team actually did commit with actual hard evidence.
Yeah, we have a lot to say. You don't. You're a friggin sheep.
FOAD I'm sick to death of your kind. You just can't deal with the success of someone else. Too fvcking bad.
so...we're supposed to just let ignorant fvcktards like you come out and spout off without responding?
What color are the skies in your world?
I have one question BS. IF Tom Bradys wife received HGH would you just dismiss it like you did with your BOY Peyton?
I already know your answer. It would be the same as the NFL's and ESPNS. Tom would get bashed and his name would be dragged through the mud again with another BS wells report. Suspended even if there is no clear evidence. Because after all Goodell needs none when it comes to Brady because the country hates his winning ways, and he had to cheat to win. IMO Fans who think Brady cheated are infantile mindless sheep desperately trying to grab a hold why their team blew Cock year after year after year or are just plain jealous.
I already know your answer. It would be the same as the NFL's and ESPNS. Tom would get bashed and his name would be dragged through the mud again with another BS wells report. Suspended even if there is no clear evidence. Because after all Goodell needs none when it comes to Brady because the country hates his winning ways, and he had to cheat to win. IMO Fans who think Brady cheated are infantile mindless sheep desperately trying to grab a hold why their team blew Cock year after year after year or are just plain jealous.
TheBSPolice
Active member
First of all, I haven't presented anything that isn't factual, so the charge of ignorance is pretty weak.
Second, yeah. If you're so sick of talking about it you wouldn't engage.
Instead, bunches of you have leapt onto this fire of your own free will, including the couple who derailed the other thread when I came to talk about officiating.
Yes, I got baited into going off topic with them, but please remember that I didn't bring it up, and I haven't resorted to cheap trolling tactics. I've been engaging in a discussion, which a bunch of you apparently have trouble with, based on the insults you keep hurling.
Here is a hint though, if you were so confident in how right you were, you would be a lot less defensive about people questioning it.
PatsFanLisa
No filter
Maybe if you were on this side of the fence, having idiots like you come crashing down the door with your original cheating comments day after day, game after game, for an entire year, you would be defensive, too.
Confident? We've been to the SB six times in 14 years, won four times, going to our fifth straight AFCCG, ten in 14 years, and you don't think we have confidence? We have Tom Brady, the greatest QB of all time, and you don't think we're confident?
Yeah, we're confident. We're just sick of people like you, Mr. Original Thoughts.
And, by the way, you haven't presented one fact.
A few here already had connected the dots from Harbaugh to Grigson even before reports which confirmed those suspicions were published, and despite Harbaugh's denial.
You have no idea how closely we dissected every angle here, in real time.
And as for the ref issue, please find one fan forum that does not ever mention poor officiating. We actually discuss it here on occasion during games in which NE isn't playing {GASP!}.
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actually you are very much avoiding facts, you are letting a few reactions speak for everyone - in doing this you miss the sarcasm in many posters comments or just the Vent factor.