Worst Coaching Decision - Pete Carroll or Dan Quinn?

[Mazz22]

It seems as those many are giving Petey a pass for his defense blowing a 10 point lead in the fourth. Seattle's defense that year was much better than Atlanta's last year. I still believe Atlanta's coaching overall was worse but it is close IMO. Petey still had that chance at the end to win and blew it. That is not minor.

 

[chevss454]

It seems as those many are giving Petey a pass for his defense blowing a 10 point lead in the fourth. Seattle's defense that year was much better than Atlanta's last year. I still believe Atlanta's coaching overall was worse but it is close IMO. Petey still had that chance at the end to win and blew it. That is not minor.

Looking at that another way - did Petey's D blow it or did the Patriots impose their will? Imo, that was the Patriots doing what they do. The Pats earned it far more than Seattle blew it.

His play call was perfect for our defensive alignment. An int there was the furthest thing from his mind on that simple 2 yard pitch and catch. Little did he know the Pats had practiced against it.

Atlanta's coaches, Shanahan to be specific, flat out blew their opportunity to win - not just once but on 3 consecutive play calls.

 

[BostonTim]

And yet, Lynch was stopped on 3rd and 1 earlier in the game. I believe at the time, his season long conversion rate in short yardage situations was about 50%.
BTW, Seattle had no way to know the Pats were prepared for that play. And even still, it took a remarkable effort by both Browner and Butler to make the play.
Meanwhile, Atlanta had 3 chances to do no harm and had negative plays on each of them. Unlike Seattle, they were in game management mode and they failed miserably.

This ^. No way Seattle (coaches or Wilson) imagined it would be a bang bang play. Funniest thing about both plays was that, from my POV, they both, as they started to develop, looked like walk ins.

HT and Butler, two of the greatest plays in SB history in back to back snaps to take home the trophy.

It couldn't get better than that...

Until, well, you know...


Cheers

 

[Mazz22]

Looking at that another way - did Petey's D blow it or did the Patriots impose their will? Imo, that was the Patriots doing what they do. The Pats earned it far more than Seattle blew it.

His play call was perfect for our defensive alignment. An int there was the furthest thing from his mind on that simple pitch and catch. Little did he know the Pats had practiced against it.

Atlanta's coaches, Shanahan to be specific, flat out blew their opportunity to win - not just once but on 3 consecutive play calls.

I think you can make the same case for Atlanta too. Pats did impose their will on that drive with the sack and the holding call. I really felt Atlanta's defense contested all of our drives on offense. Brady had to work the ball meticulously down the field on every drive. I did not feel like Atlanta gave us the game like Petey did with that play call. But overall, Quinn really did mismanage the entire second half by not running his two stud RBs. The last drive for the FG is immaterial if the Falcons had been ticking down the clock prior but again the Pats did impose their will on those drives too.

I think with Atlanta you feel like they were too stubborn in their offensive mindset to score on every drive and therefore did not coach situationally very well and it cost them. With Petey, he had the game right in his hands. I mean it was right there. Ton of time on the clock, time out in hand, best RB in the league and you throw the slant. I mean it is just a "take your breath away" type of call with the momentum of the game and the way Lynch was gashing us.

 

[chevss454]

I think you can make the same case for Atlanta too. Pats did impose their will on that drive with the sack and the holding call. I really felt Atlanta's defense contested all of our drives on offense. Brady had to work the ball meticulously down the field on every drive. I did not feel like Atlanta gave us the game like Petey did with that play call. But overall, Quinn really did mismanage the entire second half by not running his two stud RBs. The last drive for the FG is immaterial if the Falcons had been ticking down the clock prior but again the Pats did impose their will on those drives too.

I think with Atlanta you feel like they were too stubborn in their offensive mindset to score on every drive and therefore did not coach situationally very well and it cost them. With Petey, he had the game right in his hands. I mean it was right there. Ton of time on the clock, time out in hand, best RB in the league and you throw the slant. I mean it is just a "take your breath away" type of call with the momentum of the game and the way Lynch was gashing us.

Yes they did but now you've changed the original question in your OP and that's a different discussion although the answer is still Quinn.

For me your OP has a simple & logical conclusion: Petey allowed a play call for a simple 2 yard pitch and catch against our stacked D to go ahead with a TD. That was the right call imo in that situation. His only 'crime' is that he didn't know BB had prepared for that exact call. Credit BB's thoroughness rather than punish Petey for the outcome.

Quinn/Shanahan had 3 consecutive play calls to preserve the win and they botched every one. Punish Quinn & Shanahan for giving the Pats a chance to impose its defensive will. It should never have come to that for Atlanta.

 

[Darth Despot]

Poodle Pete's call may not have been correct, but was at least defensible.

Dan Quinn completely mis-read the game he was coaching.

The Falcons were ahead because of turnovers and a couple of big plays, but overall the game was pretty even, Quinn thought he was kicking ass. He coached like a fan playing Madden.

 

[Mazz22]

Yes they did but now you've changed the original question in your OP and that's a different discussion although the answer is still Quinn.

For me your OP has a simple & logical conclusion: Petey allowed a play call for a simple 2 yard pitch and catch against our stacked D to go ahead with a TD. That was the right call imo in that situation. His only 'crime' is that he didn't know BB had prepared for that exact call. Credit BB's thoroughness rather than punish Petey for the outcome.

Quinn/Shanahan had 3 consecutive play calls to preserve the win and they botched every one. Punish Quinn & Shanahan for giving the Pats a chance to impose its defensive will. It should never have come to that for Atlanta.

I think Quinn/Shanhan had more than 3 consecutive bad play calls. Four total running plays in the second half when up 3-4 scores. Just inexcusable. Terrible second half but still they did not give the game to the Pats IMO, the way Petey did with that play call. The Pats still had play defense and make those sacks/stops and Brady still had to go the length of the field on multiple drives and convert two 2-point conversions.

I am not sure how you or anyone can say that was the "right" call given the flow of the game, situation being second down and personnel on the field. Saying it was a horrific play call does not take anything away from Bill's coaching or Butler's play BUT the fact that Seattle ran that play a lot from that position on the field hence why the Pats were prepared for it and the fact that Browner recognized it immediately as soon as the receivers lined up is WHY it is indefensible IMO. It was horrific and ultimately cost them a second chip.

 

[Jaric]

I am glad this thread doesn't have a poll/pole/pohl.

Polls are annoying.

Polls are antiquated.

Polls are useless.

Polls suck.

What is this blasphemy?

 

[chevss454]

I think Quinn/Shanhan had more than 3 consecutive bad play calls. Four total running plays in the second half when up 3-4 scores. Just inexcusable. Terrible second half but still they did not give the game to the Pats IMO, the way Petey did with that play call. The Pats still had play defense and make those sacks/stops and Brady still had to go the length of the field on multiple drives and convert two 2-point conversions.

I am not sure how you or anyone can say that was the "right" call given the flow of the game, situation being second down and personnel on the field. Saying it was a horrific play call does not take anything away from Bill's coaching or Butler's play BUT the fact that Seattle ran that play a lot from that position on the field hence why the Pats were prepared for it and the fact that Browner recognized it immediately as soon as the receivers lined up is WHY it is indefensible IMO. It was horrific and ultimately cost them a second chip.

You answered your own query in the bolded part above. An entire half of bad play calls to preserve a win trumps 1 debatable play call to win all day long.

 

[Mazz22]

You answered your own query in the bolded part above. An entire half of bad play calls to preserve a win trumps 1 debatable play call to win all day long.

I never debated that. I said Quinn was more at fault in my OP precisely because it was an entire half of terrible play calling. I just don't see the gap between the two coaching blunders as wide as others. Carroll had victory in his hands and just threw it away literally. I don't consider that a minor blunder given a chip was on the line.

 

[gomezcat]

Quinn. Had Wilson's pass been half a yard more accurate, we'd have lost the SB. The Pats were set up to stop the run and that play was spectacularly close to working. As for the Falcons, I've watched that game a few times since. I obviously loved the comeback and resilience, but the Falcons really, really f***ed up in that second half.

 

[O_P_T]

I think Quinn/Shanhan had more than 3 consecutive bad play calls. Four total running plays in the second half when up 3-4 scores. Just inexcusable. Terrible second half but still they did not give the game to the Pats IMO, the way Petey did with that play call. The Pats still had play defense and make those sacks/stops and Brady still had to go the length of the field on multiple drives and convert two 2-point conversions.

IMHO, the single most indefensible action by Atlanta in that second half was not their play calling, but their failure to run down the playclock.

IIRC, they were snapping the ball with 20 odd seconds left on the play clock, just about every single play.

That is stupid.

I am not sure how you or anyone can say that was the "right" call given the flow of the game, situation being second down and personnel on the field. Saying it was a horrific play call does not take anything away from Bill's coaching or Butler's play BUT the fact that Seattle ran that play a lot from that position on the field hence why the Pats were prepared for it and the fact that Browner recognized it immediately as soon as the receivers lined up is WHY it is indefensible IMO. It was horrific and ultimately cost them a second chip.

It was the "right" call given the circumstances.

Give credit to BB for having the awareness/big brass spherical appendages not to call a time out prior to that play.

Seattle had only one TO left, and if they were in four down territory.

With one TO and that much time left on the clock, they were going to have to pass the ball on at least one of those three remaining plays, if they didn't score earlier.

If they run on second down and don't get in, they have to burn the TO and then everyone knows that the next play has to be a pass.

If they run it on 3rd down and don't score, they don't get a 4th down attempt.

So would you rather pass on a down where the defense isn't 100% certain you're going to try to pass (i.e., second down) or on a down where they are certain? (i.e. third down).

How likely is an interception on second down vs third down?

On the second down play, if the Pats hadn't practiced against that exact same play, if Browner hadn't recognized it and held firm giving Butler room to cut behind him, and if Butler hadn't recognized the play and broke immediately on the ball, the worse case scenario is incomplete.

Why would anyone think that Butler had the skills and knowledge to make such a play?

On third down, who knows since it would be a different defensive package and probable offensive play call. However, if a defense knows a pass is coming it certainly makes defending it easier.

 

[bideau]

I am not sure how you or anyone can say that was the "right" call given the flow of the game, situation being second down and personnel on the field. Saying it was a horrific play call does not take anything away from Bill's coaching or Butler's play BUT the fact that Seattle ran that play a lot from that position on the field hence why the Pats were prepared for it and the fact that Browner recognized it immediately as soon as the receivers lined up is WHY it is indefensible IMO. It was horrific and ultimately cost them a second chip.

Pretty much everyone but you has said it was the "right" call.
It's certainly your right to disagree, but at some point it's just time to agree to disagree. :shrug:

 

[Mazz22]

IMHO, the single most indefensible action by Atlanta in that second half was not their play calling, but their failure to run down the playclock.

IIRC, they were snapping the ball with 20 odd seconds left on the play clock, just about every single play.

That is stupid.



It was the "right" call given the circumstances.

Give credit to BB for having the awareness/big brass spherical appendages not to call a time out prior to that play.

Seattle had only one TO left, and if they were in four down territory.

With one TO and that much time left on the clock, they were going to have to pass the ball on at least one of those three remaining plays, if they didn't score earlier.

If they run on second down and don't get in, they have to burn the TO and then everyone knows that the next play has to be a pass.

If they run it on 3rd down and don't score, they don't get a 4th down attempt.

So would you rather pass on a down where the defense isn't 100% certain you're going to try to pass (i.e., second down) or on a down where they are certain? (i.e. third down).

How likely is an interception on second down vs third down?

On the second down play, if the Pats hadn't practiced against that exact same play, if Browner hadn't recognized it and held firm giving Butler room to cut behind him, and if Butler hadn't recognized the play and broke immediately on the ball, the worse case scenario is incomplete.

Why would anyone think that Butler had the skills and knowledge to make such a play?

On third down, who knows since it would be a different defensive package and probable offensive play call. However, if a defense knows a pass is coming it certainly makes defending it easier.

There was over a minute left on the clock after Lynch got to the one yard line. There was plenty of time for Seattle to run three plays all runs if they wanted given they had the TO. Petey CHOSE to let the clock run down because he saw the Pats were in goalline and for some reason did not believe the best RB in the league who had over 100 yards to that point in the game and a TD could not get in the end zone and out thought himself and went with 3 WRs and then inexplicably threw a slant to his third best receiver with Browner reading it from the time the receivers lined up.

I get the sense that some here believe saying Petey made a bad call takes away from the brilliance of Bill/Butler. It doesn't. The play still had to be made by the Pats and their superior coaching and execution prevailed. But this notion that it was a good call or the right call is stunning. But to each his own, we can just agree to disagree. :shrug_n:

 

[Smudger]

You're talking like you've never seen a back get stopped on a run from the 1. It happens every week in the NFL.

Maybe, maybe, it would've worked out better if they had run it, but IMO nowhere near guaranteed enough to make it the horrendous call you're claiming.

Out of interest, what do you think the percentages are on the INT happening vs the run stop?

 

[Mazz22]

You're talking like you've never seen a back get stopped on a run from the 1. It happens every week in the NFL.

Maybe, maybe, it would've worked out better if they had run it, but IMO nowhere near guaranteed enough to make it the horrendous call you're claiming.

Out of interest, what do you think the percentages are on the INT happening vs the run stop?

Even if he is stopped at the 1 on second down, you still have 2 more downs to get in. Of course anything can happen. He could have gotten stopped, he could have fumbled ... but he was killing us all game. Wilfork who was in the middle was horrible vs the run all season which is why it was his last season with us. I mean play calling is based on percentages and game situation and personnel. I can't think of a worse call than a slant from the one to your third best receiver on a play that you have run a lot from that spot. I mean you are playing the Pats. Of course they will have scouted that play. Your own player Browner, played against the play time and again and recognized it a nanosecond. All of that is ON Petey which is why it makes it terrible coaching that cost his team a chip.

The INT percentage is high on a slant from the one because you are putting the ball in the air in the middle of the field with all the players bunched up. A stop is fine on the run. You still have 2 more plays. You can live with a stop. You had plenty of time and a time out. You lose with the pick.

 

[BostonTim]

You answered your own query in the bolded part above. An entire half of bad play calls to preserve a win trumps 1 debatable play call to win all day long.

And regardless of their proclivity to step constantly on the gas, I can't believe the ongoing snaps with nine ten fourteen seconds still on the play-clock, With the. I,ve been meaning to see if I could figure how much time they could have shed had their average snap been at three-or seconds, 1.5 - 2 minutes I'd bet just in the second half.

Indefensible.

 

[spacecrime]

I saw nothing wrong with Carroll's call. How many times have we (and every other team) been stopped running the ball from the one or two yard line? The line is stuffed with fatties and LB wait an go over the top to stop leapers. We throw from the one and two yard line all the time. This play evidently worked for them many times before and the only reason it didn't work this time was that BB saw how man times it worked and they practiced against this particular play. In practice, the offense scored. Browner blocked the pick guy but Butler was late. BB told him he has to stomp his foot and drive with the snap. But for that, we don't win.

Quinn's call (or shannahan's, not sure whose) was a lack of knowledge of situational football, but Ryan takes a lot of the blame. Watch the broadcast game and watch the play clock. Time and again in the fourth quarter Ryan snaps the ball with 15 seconds left on the clock. Inexcusable.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I saw nothing wrong with Carroll's call. How many times have we (and every other team) been stopped running the ball from the one or two yard line? The line is stuffed with fatties and LB wait an go over the top to stop leapers. We throw from the one and two yard line all the time. This play evidently worked for them many times before and the only reason it didn't work this time was that BB saw how man times it worked and they practiced against this particular play. In practice, the offense scored. Browner blocked the pick guy but Butler was late. BB told him he has to stomp his foot and drive with the snap. But for that, we don't win.

Quinn's call (or shannahan's, not sure whose) was a lack of knowledge of situational football, but Ryan takes a lot of the blame. Watch the broadcast game and watch the play clock. Time and again in the fourth quarter Ryan snaps the ball with 15 seconds left on the clock. Inexcusable.

That Seattle team was smash-mouth bad ass D and at the time the top 2-3 pure violent runners. I don't so much mind a pass call because to be honest I think he was thinking ahead. If the catch isn't made we'll decide on our best run look and pound it home. It's just the particular pass pattern. There's a chance of a pick with that option. A corner fade where if the players not open you put it in the 3rd row should've been the call.

Atlantas time management the whole second half was possibly the worst professional management work I've seen. I mean, Andy Reid was laughing at them.

It's a dead push.

 

[chevss454]

I never debated that. I said Quinn was more at fault in my OP precisely because it was an entire half of terrible play calling. I just don't see the gap between the two coaching blunders as wide as others. Carroll had victory in his hands and just threw it away literally. I don't consider that a minor blunder given a chip was on the line.

Aha! That's where we differ.

I don't see it as Petey throwing it away.
I see it as BB being prepared for that exact 2 yd pitch and catch to take it away.

Your pov punishes Petey for BB's brilliance.

Big difference.