Worst Coaching Decision - Pete Carroll or Dan Quinn?

Aha! That's where we differ.

I don't see it as Petey throwing it away.
I see it as BB being prepared for that exact 2 yd pitch and catch to take it away.

Your pov punishes Petey for BB's brilliance.

Big difference.

I think that is a typical Pats homer take. Somehow criticizing Petey for a dumb call takes away from BBs brilliance in defending it. Both can be true and I would argue both are in this case.
 
I never debated that. I said Quinn was more at fault in my OP precisely because it was an entire half of terrible play calling. I just don't see the gap between the two coaching blunders as wide as others. Carroll had victory in his hands and just threw it away literally. I don't consider that a minor blunder given a chip was on the line.

Can't say that. they weren't ahead. It's kind of like the whole "all Atlanta had to do was run the ball 3x and kick a FG" line of thinking- sounds great in theory. Probably works real well against Tampa in Week 9. BUT...this was the Super Bowl. No guarantee he doesn't Norwood it.
 
I think that is a typical Pats homer take. Somehow criticizing Petey for a dumb call takes away from BBs brilliance in defending it. Both can be true and I would argue both are in this case.

Homer? Why are you making this personal?
Whatever.

The media made a big deal of BB's brilliance & preparedness for practicing for that exact play in the aftermath of the game.

Ok, let’s be realistic — a rifled ball over the middle isn’t the easiest pass in the world to pick off. It’s hard for a DB get an angle on, it’s one of the easiest routes to be accurate with, it’s easy to get flagged for pass interference because it’s nearly impossible to avoid contact on such a short pass, and it comes up on you really quick which makes it almost impossible to react to.

The only way that Russell Wilson's 1 yard slant pass to Lockette gets picked off is if a DB anticipates the route, jumps it, and times his move perfectly and somehow manages to wrestle the the ball away from the intended target AND hang onto it.

You should probably cut Petey and OC Darrell Bevell (and Russell Wilson) some slack. That’s not the terrible 2nd down play call you think it was. Sure, hindsight being 20/20, handing it off to Lynch would've prevented the int but Lynch was successful on only 1 of 5 attempts from the 1 yd line all year against goal line defenses. Petey and Bevell knew this. When you’re facing a goal-line package and time is against you, logic dictates a pass play has a better shot at winning the game right then than a run. Petey wasn’t taking as much of a risk as it seemed at the time but sometimes an UDFA CB comes out of no where to make an incredible historic play after being coached up magnificently by BB for that exact play. Shit happens; that's why I love football.
 
The play prior had 9 yds with Beast Mode that would've been a TD without the most under sung plays of that game by HT. They had ALL the momentum. Corner fade. Throw it away. 2 more cracks to pound it in.

I bet a computer sim has that sequence at over 95% success.
 
Homer? Why are you making this personal?
Whatever.

The media made a big deal of BB's brilliance & preparedness for practicing for that exact play in the aftermath of the game.

Ok, let’s be realistic — a rifled ball over the middle isn’t the easiest pass in the world to pick off. It’s hard for a DB get an angle on, it’s one of the easiest routes to be accurate with, it’s easy to get flagged for pass interference because it’s nearly impossible to avoid contact on such a short pass, and it comes up on you really quick which makes it almost impossible to react to.

The only way that Russell Wilson's 1 yard slant pass to Lockette gets picked off is if a DB anticipates the route, jumps it, and times his move perfectly and somehow manages to wrestle the the ball away from the intended target AND hang onto it.

You should probably cut Petey and OC Darrell Bevell (and Russell Wilson) some slack. That’s not the terrible play call you think it was. Sure, hindsight being 20/20, handing it off to Lynch would've prevented the int but Lynch was successful on only 1 of 5 attempts from the 1 yd line all year against goal line defenses. Petey and Bevell knew this. When you’re facing a goal-line package and time is against you, logic dictates a pass play has a better shot at winning the game right then than a run. Petey wasn’t taking as much of a risk as it seemed at the time but sometimes an UDFA CB comes out of no where to make an incredible historic play after being coached up magnificently by BB for that exact play. Shit happens; that's why I love football.


Not the only way.

He's throwing over the middle into a lot of traffic. A lot of traffic means even more hands to deflect a ball. I'm ok with a pass call because there was clock stoppage issues to consider too with only 1 TO. But I would have chose a safer route.
 
I think it's a push. Carroll was arrogant and wanted to get Wilson the MVP and thought any play he ran would work.

Quinn was a slow bleed but a lot of it was on Shanahan, too.

Complete idiocy on both fronts.
 
I think it's a push. Carroll was arrogant and wanted to get Wilson the MVP and thought any play he ran would work.

Quinn was a slow bleed but a lot of it was on Shanahan, too.

Complete idiocy on both fronts.

Yup.

Neither one can keep their chin up in those debacles.
 
Like OPT said (I think BB said something similar defending Carrol's call), the offense had the advantage on when they wanted to pass instead of when they had to pass. SEA was expecting BB to call a TO, when he didn't, they were unorganized which could be clearly seen. An injury or the run likely getting stopped would have forced a TO and a penalty would have pushed them back. Any of the three would have necessitated passing on 3rd down which would have given the defense an advantage.
 
The play prior had 9 yds with Beast Mode that would've been a TD without the most under sung plays of that game by HT. They had ALL the momentum. Corner fade. Throw it away. 2 more cracks to pound it in.

I bet a computer sim has that sequence at over 95% success.

The Pats weren't in goal line on that 9 yd gain.

I still have nightmares of that corner fade from Brady to Bennett being picked off vs Atlanta. It was close. A fade isn't as safe a pass as a 1 yd slant imo unless you're willing to waste the scoring opportunity by throwing it away.

From Numberfire
The Seahawks were down four with 26 seconds remaining. Seattle faced a second-and-goal. They had one timeout remaining and New England, with three defensive backs on the field, lined up in man-to-man coverage against Seattle’s three-receiver set.

In the NFL, with man-to-man coverage, the advantage goes to the offense. After burning two timeouts earlier in the drive, and with only 26 seconds remaining, it was not really feasible for the Seahawks to run the ball three straight plays. If they ran the ball on second down and failed, they would need to call their final timeout. Without a timeout, if they ran and were stopped on third down, it is unlikely they would have time to lineup for a fourth-down attempt. There are massive pileups at the goal line and it takes a while to get unpiled and set up. Obviously, three plays to score the go-ahead touchdown are better than two.


Historically, though, interceptions occur on only 3.1% of passing plays from the 1-yard line. The Seahawks ran nine plays [in 2014] from the goal line, running the ball seven times (scoring just three times, 42.9%) and throwing twice (scoring once).


Let’s look at the specific situation: down by four to eight points (one possession but more than a field goal) with under one minute remaining. Since 2000, there are 73 such situations with a success rate of just 42.5%—dramatically lower than the rest of the game. Passes converted 48.5% of the time and rushes a measly 37.5% on 40 attempts.

Was the decision to throw the ball the worst play call in history? Not even close.


If the Seahawks score there, no one thinks twice about the decision. Instead, Belichick would be ridiculed for the blatant mistake of not taking his timeouts once the Seahawks were in a goal-to-go scenario. But the interception happened, so it’s Carroll taking the heat.
By Numberfire as a guest on MMQB
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/02/04/russell-wilson-super-bowl-49-interception-statistical-analysis
 
There was over a minute left on the clock after Lynch got to the one yard line. There was plenty of time for Seattle to run three plays all runs if they wanted given they had the TO. Petey CHOSE to let the clock run down because he saw the Pats were in goalline and for some reason did not believe the best RB in the league who had over 100 yards to that point in the game and a TD could not get in the end zone and out thought himself and went with 3 WRs and then inexplicably threw a slant to his third best receiver with Browner reading it from the time the receivers lined up.

26 seconds were left.

Not the only way.

He's throwing over the middle into a lot of traffic. A lot of traffic means even more hands to deflect a ball. I'm ok with a pass call because there was clock stoppage issues to consider too with only 1 TO. But I would have chose a safer route.

The throw went wide of our DE. Not exactly over the middle.
 
You don't even need special math to understand the difference.

Ask a random group of football fans which of the following is more likely:

1. An INT on a slant route at the goal line

2. A team being pushed out of FG range because it called passing rather than running plays

#1 is very, very rare. So much so that I can't recall one from last season. #2 happens on a weekly basis.

And let's not forget that that drive wasn't the only component of Quinn's poor coaching. He had an entire half to play keep away by running the ball with his group of fairly fresh RBs. He shit his pants for an entire half.

Pete made one questionable call that required one of the best defensive plays in SB history to not be a TD.
 
26 seconds were left.

Two points of order:

1. 1st and goal was from the 5 with 1:06 remaining. It was a 4 yard gain, not 9.
2. When the 1st down play ended, there were 58 seconds on the clock. The ball was snapped with 26 seconds left. It took Seattle 32 seconds to get the play off.
 
That Seattle ... If the catch isn't made we'll decide on our best run look and pound it home.
Yeah, that's the other thing. If the play isn't there, WiIlson throws the ball away, and they have time to run.

Atlantas time management the whole second half was possibly the worst professional management work I've seen. I mean, Andy Reid was laughing at them.
Nothing worse than getting laughed at by a guy whose team huddled up after the final two-minute warning when they're trailing and deep in their own territory. Didn't he give McNabb a play?
 
Yeah, that's the other thing. If the play isn't there, WiIlson throws the ball away, and they have time to run.

That is my biggest issue with the play call. It was a bang/bang play where Wilson steps back and throws it to a spot over the middle of the field. When Wilson walked off the field he had to ask Petey what happened. He did not even see Butler jump the route. That is why IMO is it such an AWFUL call. I have no issue with a pass play there but THAT play gave Wilson no recognition time at all and disaster struck. That is why don't call it or in Petey's case you override it and call a roll out for Wilson.
 
That is my biggest issue with the play call. It was a bang/bang play where Wilson steps back and throws it to a spot over the middle of the field. When Wilson walked off the field he had to ask Petey what happened. He did not even see Butler jump the route. That is why IMO is it such an AWFUL call. I have no issue with a pass play there but THAT play gave Wilson no recognition time at all and disaster struck. That is why don't call it or in Petey's case you override it and call a roll out for Wilson.

My take is that the reason that Wilson didn't see it was due to the timing/closing speed. Like in a basketball game when a player jumps a pass and walks in totally alone because it was one of those kind of perfect timing steals. Or like Larry Bird or Havlicek.

Nobody expected it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-WidDnqdFCU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Cheers
 
Not only that but Wilson's view of Butler was hidden by Lockette himself. Butler reacted in an instant, bang-bang. A tenth of a second later and it would have been a TD.
 
That is my biggest issue with the play call. It was a bang/bang play where Wilson steps back and throws it to a spot over the middle of the field.

Sort of like Brady to Amendola on the 2-point conversion in LI? Carrol and BB both ran a play that they felt had high probability for success with the game on the line.
 
Sort of like Brady to Amendola on the 2-point conversion in LI? Carrol and BB both ran a play that they felt had high probability for success with the game on the line.

Hardly. The play to Amendola was a screen with blockers in front of him. If he drops it then it is incomplete, no chance at the pick. The throw to Lockette was over the middle on a slant toward the defense which relied on Butler getting picked which never happened because Browner who was formerly part of the LOB recognized the play in an instant and tied up Kearse preventing the rub on Butler.
 
Lynch was killing us though all game and almost scored from the six yard line if not for the Herculean effort from Hightower.

I have no issue with a pass there but why go with a play that is bang/bang with your third best receiver? I mean Browner recognized it as soon as the receivers lined up and told Butler what to do. IMO you have to blame coaching 100 percent there as the Pats were prepared and ready for the play. That is a major fail by Petey.

Browner may have recognized the play, considering he'd seen it about a billion times in practice with Seattle.

It was the right call, it was bad execution. A stronger throw is a TD. A lower throw is a TD. A sharper route is a TD.

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

Your third best receiver is facing our third best DB.

Fourth-best until Arrington got pulled from the game.
 
Which is why a run with the best RB in the game from the 1 was the best call. :coffee:

Demarco Murray, Le'Veon Bell and LeSean McCoy weren't in that game. :coffee:

---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

It seems as those many are giving Petey a pass for his defense blowing a 10 point lead in the fourth. Seattle's defense that year was much better than Atlanta's last year. I still believe Atlanta's coaching overall was worse but it is close IMO. Petey still had that chance at the end to win and blew it. That is not minor.

25 points > 10 Points
 
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