Would BB Be Elite If TB Had Not Been a Patriot?

[RoadGrader]

You guys need to quit beating up the old woman. I'm just trying to keep myself occupied while I watch game after game of the Pats losing.

get yosef ovah here, OBF

 

[HSanders]

1. TB12 is the GOAT QB. and what he did in Tampa is straight out of a movie.
2. But the TB12 of 2007 and 2011 etc was not the same TB12 in 2000. Who taught TB12 how to be a pro? If a player improves 2X from where he started, does the HC not get any credit?
3. In an alternate universe, without BB, does TB12 even get drafted, and if he does get drafted, what other HC would have the balls to make a split-starter college-QB the starting NFL QB so soon?
4. BB was more than a defensive wizard who won Giants rings and turned around the Jets and Browns. The Patriots offense has reinvented itself multiple times (2007 option-routes, 2011 2TE, etc), that’s been via BB.
5. That 2003-2004 defense was so dominant, what are the chances BB still wins a ring by finding a different ball-control game-manager QB who doesn’t turn the ball over? (pretty high). BB showed in 2008 he could take a never-starter QB from college and turn that player into an eventual pro bowl attendee.

One tangential analogy for me is I’m a big Celtics fan of Bill Russell-Auerbach history. Russell was a transcendent talent. At the same time Russell probably doesn’t have the same success without the full support and organizational dynamics of Auerbach, especially in that historical societal climate/context. Similarly Auerbach doesn’t have the career he has without the centerpiece of the ultimate GOAT winner.

lot of good posts in this thread but this one is a

 

[ParanoidPatriot]

get yosef ovah here, OBF

View attachment 14161

RG, this act of tenderness made me ashamed of myself that I have been grumpy toward my friend OBF. I saw the thread before I had my 3rd cup of coffee and my morning smoke.(not supposed to have a smoke but I do)
Maybe I'll send her flowers but she may throw them in the garbage.

 

[Darth Despot]

There's no need, and it really doesn't matter at this point who gets what portion of credit or blame. What matters to me as a Patriots fan is that the team is not headed in the right direction, and things need to change. I believe Bill can lead that change if he himself is willing to change. Will he? That's the question we are going to find out over the rest of the season and into the offseason. The one thing I'm willing to bet right now is that the Krafts will not let Bill bring back Patricia and Judge to run the offense next season and I would go as far as to bet that if he tries to, we will be looking at a new head coach come spring.

IMO BB didn't want to bring in an outside OC and there was no one available with the Pats system knowledge. Right or wrong that's where we were. If we stick with this experiment next year I will be right with you, but context of a decision matters.

 

[Grogan]

IMO BB didn't want to bring in an outside OC and there was no one available with the Pats system knowledge. Right or wrong that's where we were. If we stick with this experiment next year I will be right with you, but context of a decision matters.

So you're saying that putting someone that never ran an offense in their life in charge was the best Bill could do? BULLSHIT.

 

[HSanders]

So you're saying that putting someone that never ran an offense in their life in charge was the best Bill could do? BULLSHIT.

at one point, josh mc daniels had never run any offense in his life, pro, college or h.s. then 2005 happened.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

at one point, josh mc daniels had never run any offense in his life, pro, college or h.s. then 2005 happened.

I’ve thought about that. I am not convinced Patricia is doing a worse job than the garbage McD did in 2005-2006. 2005 and 2006 were atrocious, so many dumb predictable shotgun plays. But McD got lucky in that he already had a 3time champion QB veteran in Brady, a very experienced offensive staff including Scar, and a historically elite Superbowl-caliber defense. So it didn’t look as bad because the entire team was so good, it masked OC idiocy a lot.

For all the bashing of Patricia I think Patricia has just more innate intelligence than McD did so given time might be able to keep improving faster. The fact Patricia has evolved the offense 3 different times this season shows me a willingness to adapt/learn, to not be stubborn, and I think he might figure this out sooner rather than later if given time. Maybe.

 

[HSanders]

I’ve thought about that. I am not convinced Patricia is doing a worse job than the garbage McD did in 2005-2006. 2005 and 2006 were atrocious, so many dumb predictable shotgun plays. But McD got lucky in that he already had a 3time champion QB veteran in Brady, a very experienced offensive staff including Scar, and a historically elite Superbowl-caliber defense. So it didn’t look as bad because the entire team was so good, it masked OC idiocy a lot.

For all the bashing of Patricia I think Patricia has just more innate intelligence than McD did so given time might be able to keep improving faster. The fact Patricia has evolved the offense 3 different times this season shows me a willingness to adapt/learn, to not be stubborn, and I think he might figure this out sooner rather than later if given time. Maybe.

good point on the experienced players mc d had. it hurts more having a first time oc and qb coach(mcd had been qb coach and was still called just that in 05)with a very young qb especially.

 

[Grogan]

at one point, josh mc daniels had never run any offense in his life, pro, college or h.s. then 2005 happened.

You seem to be missing the fact that he didn't go from never having even worked on a offensive staff, ever, to running the entire operation. How far are you willing to twist logic and common sense to make excuses for an obviously disastrous decision?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

good point on the experienced players mc d had. it hurts more having a first time oc and qb coach(mcd had been qb coach and was still called just that in 05)with a very young qb especially.

yes agree. A ton more risky this time with a young QB in Mac not a 3time champion, plus no Scar and a crappy OLine, and a terrible QB coach in Joe Judge. I don’t know if saving money due to subsidies from the Lions/Giants justifies wrecking a billion dollar franchise valuation

 

[HSanders]

You seem to be missing the fact that he didn't go from never having even worked on a offensive staff, ever, to running the entire operation. How far are you willing to twist logic and common sense to make excuses for an obviously disastrous decision?

dkf's point was there was an experienced staff and players on offense when mcd took over. he is correct. i correctly pointed out the offense has a young qb and inexperienced qb coach and oc which makes the situation tougher and that jmd had just been qb coach, never run an offense. also correct. what are you objecting to exactly?

 

[Darth Despot]

dkf's point was there was an experienced staff and players on offense when mcd took over. he is correct. i correctly pointed out the offense has a young qb and inexperienced qb coach and oc which makes the situation tougher and that jmd had just been qb coach, never run an offense. also correct. what are you objecting to exactly?

You didn't say Fire Belichick

 

[HSanders]

yes agree. A ton more risky this time with a young QB in Mac not a 3time champion, plus no Scar and a crappy OLine, and a terrible QB coach in Joe Judge. I don’t know if saving money due to subsidies from the Lions/Giants justifies wrecking a billion dollar franchise valuation

i reeeeeeaaaallly hope it wasn't just a financial decision. if it was...

 

[aloyouis]

I don’t know if saving money due to subsidies from the Lions/Giants justifies wrecking a billion dollar franchise valuation

Saving money wasn’t the goal.

They are both making significantly more money, and in Joe Judge’s case for a significantly greater period of time by allowing them to get paid by their previous teams. Probably like 300% more. So forget about cost savings for the patriots and think about Belichick doing those two coaches, a solid by not naming them and forcing them to give up their contract from the Lions and the Giants.

We can take the “cheap“ idea off the table now. Thank you.

 

[Mazz22]

Saving money wasn’t the goal.

They are both making significantly more money, and in Joe Judge’s case for a significantly greater period of time by allowing them to get paid by their previous teams. Probably like 300% more. So forget about cost savings for the patriots and think about Belichick doing those two coaches, a solid by not naming them and forcing them to give up their contract from the Lions and the Giants.

We can take the “cheap“ idea off the table now. Thank you.

Huh? By not naming them, Bill saved all that money. That is why it was a win/win for both financially. Both got paid and Bill did not have to pay. I will never understand it as coaches salaries do not count against the cap so for Bill/Bob not to open the pocket book wide and get a competent OC has cost the Pats this season and possibly even worse cost them Mac's development too. It was a colossal misjudgment to save money.

 

[aloyouis]

i reeeeeeaaaallly hope it wasn't just a financial decision. if it was...

It wasn’t.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Huh? By not naming them, Bill saved all that money. That is why it was a win/win for both financially. Both got paid and Bill did not have to pay. I will never understand it as coaches salaries do not count against the cap so for Bill/Bob not to open the pocket book wide and get a competent OC has cost the Pats this season and possibly even worse cost them Mac's development too. It was a colossal misjudgment to save money.

not worth ruining your QB, wasting a 2nd round pick and also WR from a trade, waste of $30M in tight ends, and also probably lowering your franchise value by $50M+ over 12 months.

 

[Grogan]

dkf's point was there was an experienced staff and players on offense when mcd took over. he is correct. i correctly pointed out the offense has a young qb and inexperienced qb coach and oc which makes the situation tougher and that jmd had just been qb coach, never run an offense. also correct. what are you objecting to exactly?

You're responding to the wrong person.

 

[aloyouis]

not worth ruining your QB, wasting a 2nd round pick and also WR from a trade, waste of $30M in tight ends, and also probably lowering your franchise value by $50M+ over 12 months.

Patricia was a terrible decision. We all (mostly) agree. BB made a bad decision. It wasn't to save $ it was just a bad decision.

The impact of that decision will be felt for quite sometime. This season was sacrificed. I don't think BB did it on purpose, but his inaction = sacrificed season.

Sacrificing a potentially great QB is not as forgivable. Not at all.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

You're responding to the wrong person.

i think everyone is actually in agreement that what has happened in 2022 is a lot riskier than 2005 =D