Did Bill "tank" the Denver game?

Okay. I'm current in the thread and we've got some respected opinions weighing in that it was just a legit loss due largely to injuries and necessary adjustments to their replacements. Totally understandable.

So, Stan characterized the end of the first half as a "coaching miscue".

For those who also think that my theory is off-base I'd like to hear other opinions as to why we just killed the clock with that much time left and multiple time outs to burn.

Anybody?

That part was really puzzling, Hawg. It's a great question. I think the deep throws were personnel-related, but I was really baffled when they kept running the ball at the end of the 1st half.

Just FTR, I don't think your idea is totally out of the realm of imagination, but the game's turning point was the muffed punt. If the Patriots even just fair catch that ball, they get it near midfield, with a 14-point lead and a great chance to add to it. If BB wanted to lose, they would have had to really tank it if Harper had held on to that punt.

Also, the PI call on Gronk and holding call on Jackson that wiped out two 3rd down conversions in the 4th quarter were key (bad) calls that obviously BB had nothing to do with. Without those calls, they convert on those 3rd downs, and likely use up enough clock to keep Denver from tying the game late.

The Pats' offense was definitely (and uncharacteristically) conservative at the end of the half though. Tough to explain that one, got to agree with you on that. Maybe BB didn't want to chance anything but that certainly goes against the way they usually handle those situations.
 
"Teams that make it to and win in the playoffs more often than not have high level of QB play"

Would you say that Tampa had a high level of QB play with Brad Johnson? The Jesters made it to consecutive CCGs with Mark Sanchez as their QB. Seattle won back-to-back conference championships and a Super Bowl with Russell Wilson running a modified college offense. Trent Dilfer. Jeff Hosteler. Tim Tebow.

Offense, defense, and special teams are the 3 components of the game. You can be mediocre on offense, but as long as you are solid-good at the other 2 phases you will win more often than not.

I'll give you one more- Brady in '02. He was decent, didn't make mistakes, but he sure as hell wasn't the Brady that we've come to know.
Dont forget Doug Williams, Peyton Manning and Fucco.
 
I think 10 games into the season is a little early to be worried that we might go 19-0.

So we lose a game in case that particular team is one of the 2 AFC teams we'd face in the playoffs? Steelers, Colts, even the Jets are possible playoff teams. This reminds me of signing FAs we don't need so the Jets, Colts, Broncos, Ravens, Steelers, etc can't get them? Or the Packers, Panthers, Seahawks/other NFC contender can't beat us in teh SB?


Just how does anyone know they can beat another team, let alone a good one. We dominated the Jets one year, 45-3, then lost to them in the playoffs. Plus, have you forgotten the year we should have easily beaten the Broncos in a playoff game and lost it?

As far as protecting the end game goes, the reason we lost the 2007 superbowl had less to do with the quest for 19-0 and Pierre Woods not falling on a fumble, Mike Carey not blowing an in the grasp whistle, Asante Samuel letting an interception go through his hands, Brandon Meriweather doing the same, and a helmet catch. How the hell can anyone 'know' who will win a game beforehand?

Well argued. Very strong stuff.

As far as the bold sentence goes you are completely correct that nobody can "know".

However, I happen to believe that Belichick usually has a really good idea what a likely result of a particular game will be, but obviously nobody can predict shit like David Tyree or Assante muffing that pic. Or the refs losing their shit. Or key injuries. Sure, there are tons of variables.

We could lose to any of the teams you mentioned, but I don't believe that Bill doesn't look at the Broncos as a logical candidate for another meeting down the road and I firmly believe he will put his finger on the scale when he feels it suits the team's best interests.
 
Hawg I could almost buy your premise but for the fact that Denver is close enough to NE in the standings that losing the head to head tiebreaker can come back to haunt you.

I think the conservative game plan was personnel based, the muffed punt was a turning point and fatigue played a roll in the late fade.
 
Dont forget Doug Williams, Peyton Manning and Fucco.

Can definitely make a case for Doug Williams. Schroeder was by FAR the superior QB. The team hated him though.
 
"Teams that make it to and win in the playoffs more often than not have high level of QB play"

Would you say that Tampa had a high level of QB play with Brad Johnson? The Jesters made it to consecutive CCGs with Mark Sanchez as their QB. Seattle won back-to-back conference championships and a Super Bowl with Russell Wilson running a modified college offense. Trent Dilfer. Jeff Hosteler. Tim Tebow.

Offense, defense, and special teams are the 3 components of the game. You can be mediocre on offense, but as long as you are solid-good at the other 2 phases you will win more often than not.

I'll give you one more- Brady in '02. He was decent, didn't make mistakes, but he sure as hell wasn't the Brady that we've come to know.

So much for ignoring me eh?
But I digress. You are correct. If a team has a great defense the team has a good chance. You can't keep an entire defense for 15+ years no can you? Most of your examples were very good defenses. And they were for the most part one and done. The Patriot's dominance in the NFL has nothing to do with the defense. Not to take anything away from because they have been very solid year in and year out. The reason the Patriots and always there is because of one name. BRADY. Wilson and the Seahawks are realizing quickly what happens when you have to pay the QB the large QB contracts. You lose in other areas. That franchise is on it's way back to earth.
 
Can definitely make a case for Doug Williams. Schroeder was by FAR the superior QB. The team hated him though.
I had to throw Peyton in their because he won because the Pats were riddled with the flu, and they played the pathetic bears...
 
I had to throw Peyton in their because he won because the Pats were riddled with the flu, and they played the pathetic bears...

...yeah...but the dude IS a first ballot HOFer and not some bum scrub that managed to Dilfer his way to a ring.
 
Sure. Erase 15 years of very close observation of a guy that does some very unconventional things that are often not understood by anybody outside of the inner circle and I'll be glad to join the club.

The man does something like this every year. You can't prove it and nobody would ever admit to it, but there are just too many suspicious games over the years for me to turn my head.

January 1st 2005. The Pats finish the regular season vs. Miami with Brady starting and giving way to rookie Matt Cassell who had thrown 33 passes in college.

We had a chance to win that game with Cassell throwing a suspiciously inaccurate pass OOB in the end zone with seconds remaining. It didn't.....look right but I can't PROVE that Bill told Matt to throw it away. Maybe we'll never know, but it sure looked odd. Staged.

The result? We get Jacksonville in the playoffs. The best result given the other possible scenarios had we won.

Was that a tank job? Without a doubt it was. Otherwise Brady plays and we don't have rookie WR Bam Childress trying to play corner. Here is Bill's interesting comment after the game:

"We played guys to get them experience, get them out there to
play," coach Bill Belichick said, "give them a chance so they
will be better prepared to play if they are called upon."


End game.

Now, why is it so inconceivable that we would, in effect, do the same thing in another game if Bill was convinced that it was the best way to achieving his end game? Of course, the skeptics among us would insist that he's really developing Scott Chandler as a deep threat, but I'm not buying into that.

I could name more examples of this same basic thing. Bill pulls the strings the way he, and only he, sees fit, no matter how nuts it may seem to others who don't win like him. Which is everybody.

Thanks for trying to help me, though. That's why I like you. You mean well.

I don't know if I can equate the last game of the season, where the implications of winning vs losing were black and white with a game in week 12 Hawg.

I agree with you that BB wasn't really interested in winning that game and I wouldn't put it past him to actively try to lose it.

But again, in that particular case there was no probability involved about what the effect would be on winning vs losing, it was clear cut black and white.

Knowing how BB stresses the "situations", I have a hard time envisioning him "tanking" earlier in the season when he doesn't know what could happen in the rest of the games.

Did you miss my post about Chandler and the RB's being matched up against LB's as the reason that the deep threat was what they were trying?

Is that the "best" option they would have in the passing game?

I don't see Jojo and Martin against the Denver CB's as a matchup that favors us, and after the first drive, Gronk was double teamed so that's not a favorable match up either.

So Chandler and the RB's attacking the LB's in space is a logical option, considering what they have available.


Okay. I'm current in the thread and we've got some respected opinions weighing in that it was just a legit loss due largely to injuries and necessary adjustments to their replacements. Totally understandable.

So, Stan characterized the end of the first half as a "coaching miscue".

For those who also think that my theory is off-base I'd like to hear other opinions as to why we just killed the clock with that much time left and multiple time outs to burn.

Anybody?

Good question.

I'd turn it around.

They get the ball on their own 20 with 2:07 left.

With the options they had on offense, what passing plays could they run?

I don't see anything to Jojo or Martin as being high probability plays.

Gronk up the middle?

Would he be open?

So we're back to Chandler and/or the RB's on the outside.

Now as I've said I think that BB and McD thought those were the best choices of bad options, but as we saw, they were not high probability plays.

So if they run those three times, and don't move the chains, how much time comes off the clock?

30 seconds? 45 seconds? and Denver doesn't have to call a time out to stop the clock.

So if we assume that Ryan gets a 45 yd net punt (his average for the night) the Broncos get the ball at ~ their 45 yard line with ~1:15 to go and two (?) time outs left.

In a 14-7 game, when you get the ball to start the second half, does that meet the risks vs reward criteria to sling it?

:shrug_n:
 
Tanked? You people are out of your minds. Miami in 2008 was a tank to get a better matchup in the playoffs. What is better, play vanilla and win by 7 while earning a tiebreaker against a likely playoff foe, or play vanilla and lose and risk returning to the place where your vanilla ass got spanked? That botched punt was a rotten cherry on a vanilla sundae.
 
Hawg I could almost buy your premise but for the fact that Denver is close enough to NE in the standings that losing the head to head tiebreaker can come back to haunt you.

I think the conservative game plan was personnel based, the muffed punt was a turning point and fatigue played a roll in the late fade.

I believe the main point ISN'T that BB tried to lose.

It is that he held back and tried to win while saving "stuff" for a possible re-match and/or keep tape out of other teams hands.

BB thought he could win AND be secretive/conservative. He rolled the dice.

Not like he hasn't done that before.
 
Tanked? You people are out of your minds. Miami in 2008 was a tank to get a better matchup in the playoffs. What is better, play vanilla and win by 7 while earning a tiebreaker against a likely playoff foe, or play vanilla and lose and risk returning to the place where your vanilla ass got spanked? That botched punt was a rotten cherry on a vanilla sundae.

I'm thinking the "tank" part of the post revolves around the vanilla gameplan if I'm reading this all correctly. Reeeeeeeeeaaaaad the OP
 
Good thread, Hawg. (I'm late bc I wasn't here yesterday)

And a lot of good discussion here.

I think your OP has a good chance to be largely validated by BB's book once he retires.

I can also see the pov that says BB had no choice but to be vanilla when TB12 had no weapons on offense.

The last 2 minutes of the 1st half sways it for me. Especially after that initial 1st down. BB always goes for the throat there. Why not this time?
 
I believe the main point ISN'T that BB tried to lose.

It is that he held back and tried to win while saving "stuff" for a possible re-match and/or keep tape out of other teams hands.

BB thought he could win AND be secretive/conservative. He rolled the dice.

Not like he hasn't done that before.

I guess it's really a rhetorical question. Was the game plan vanilla because of personnel or because of a potential future match-up?

It could go either way but I lean towards personnel.
 
No.

While Bill is probably glad that losing one game gives them the benefit of less pressure, he is a student of the game and knows how close they came to immortality in 2007. They had a second chance this year and I'm sure he would have loved to do it again, with different results. :)

Vanilla was because of injuries. As for inexplicable things like throwing to Scott Chandler so often, even coaches have bad games.

The Patriots are up to all challenges. They could have won that game if they'd been even a little healthier and they got some lucky calls. Perfection is half-talent, half-luck. They had only half their talent (all on D as Brady was reduced to throwing and catching the ball, right, Giselle?) and almost no luck last week.
 
I guess it's really a rhetorical question. Was the game plan vanilla because of personnel or because of a potential future match-up?

It could go either way but I lean towards personnel.

Interesting theory. Only BB knows the answer. Maybe BB wanted to see what the donkos would do. I'm sure BB would rather end up with the win...
 
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