TB12 and Elixir Guerrero - how comfortable are you with his honesty?

[Dwight Schrute]

The only "diet" that really works is dramatically cutting down on the amount you eat, i.e. calories and eating the right foods.

We know this becuase the only really large detailed study of this effect was uin Cuba when they went through a severe deceline after the USSR fell. Because they have excellent medical doctors there, an in depth study was made and the results were dramatic.



https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...improved-when-their-economy-collapsed/275080/

Wow. That’s really interesting.

 

[mooseontheloose]

CICO is a pretty well established principle. People just over complicate weight loss/muscle gain because trends. The science and therefore process of losing weight and/or gaining muscle is super simple, although it may not be easy to achieve because of commitment and follow through.

Ironically one of the only advertised weight loss programs that actually works is Weight Watchers (because it's glorified calorie counting) yet it's been pushed away by the current generation as their 'grandma's outdated weight loss program' and replaced with ridiculous, ineffective Facebook meme diets (ie. juice cleanses).

 

[Jaric]

My issue with strictly CICO is that it doesn't take into account the way your body reacts to the food you eat.

Does anyone want to dispute you'll get better results eating 2000 calories of heathy fats, lean meats, veggies and fruits vs 2000 calories of donuts and Pop tarts?

My experience is that if you're eating the right foods and excercising counting calories isn't remotely as necessary.

 

[mooseontheloose]

My issue with strictly CICO is that it doesn't take into account the way your body reacts to the food you eat.

Does anyone want to dispute you'll get better results eating 2000 calories of heathy fats, lean meats, veggies and fruits vs 2000 calories of donuts and Pop tarts?

My experience is that if you're eating the right foods and excercising counting calories isn't remotely as necessary.

That's not universal though. Different bodies respond to foods differently, BUT if you're actually overweight then CICO is always going to work up to a point. Eventually yes if you want to get into legit lean body fat percentages (let's say 10-13% for men) then you'll perhaps need to adjust your food selection (depending on your body), but if you're at 25% body fat then no it doesn't matter at all what you're eating as long as you're eating less of it.

The reason you've found you don't need to count calories as much when eating 'better' foods is because those foods are inherently lower in calories. You're eating a lower calorie diet without trying to do so. Plus if you're exercising then you're increasing your calories burned so you have more room to eat without gaining fat. In the end it's still the calories that matter. It's science lol - proven multiple times over.

 

[Jaric]

I understand what you're saying Moose. From a practical standpoint, if you're not changing what you eat as wellas how much of it you eat, it's incredibly unlikely you'll manage to stick to your calorie count no matter how disciplined you are. I'm of course assuming if you're that fat it's a result of eating a typical Western diet composed of mostly sugar, carbs, and processed foods. I'm also assuming that like everyone who counts calories, you aren't nearly as good at it as you like to think you (and the science backs that up).

You also have to take in to account the way your body reacts to the foods you eat. Sugar specifically is poison. I don't think that's hyperbole when you look into the impact it has on your endocrine system and all of the chronic health diseases it's responsible for.

So could you theoretically lose weight eating 2000 calories of sugar packets? Sure. But you're still gonna feel like shit, probably contract diabetes, and still have a heart attack.

Thing is, for most people if you're eating what you're supposed to eat and working out on a regular basis, you really don't need to count calories.

 

[Jaric]

By the way moose, Weight Watcher's kinda takes what I'm saying in to account by the way they assign points to certain foods.

Eggs for example are zero point foods. So theoretically you could take in thousands of calories of eggs a day on WW and still be in compliance

Good luck with that though.

 

[mooseontheloose]

I understand what you're saying Moose. From a practical standpoint, if you're not changing what you eat as wellas how much of it you eat, it's incredibly unlikely you'll manage to stick to your calorie count no matter how disciplined you are. I'm of course assuming if you're that fat it's a result of eating a typical Western diet composed of mostly sugar, carbs, and processed foods. I'm also assuming that like everyone who counts calories, you aren't nearly as good at it as you like to think you (and the science backs that up).



You also have to take in to account the way your body reacts to the foods you eat. Sugar specifically is poison. I don't think that's hyperbole when you look into the impact it has on your endocrine system and all of the chronic health diseases it's responsible for.



So could you theoretically lose weight eating 2000 calories of sugar packets? Sure. But you're still gonna feel like shit, probably contract diabetes, and still have a heart attack.



Thing is, for most people if you're eating what you're supposed to eat and working out on a regular basis, you really don't need to count calories.

For sure but what you’re talking about is general health. My original comment related to CICO was strictly related to weight and body fat management. It’s entirely possible to be lean and unhealthy using something like CICO. Low body fat doesn’t necessarily translate to health, so obviously CICO isn’t mean to address all health concerns. But it can and will be the most effective tool for controlling weight and body composition.

There’s a reason why pro bodybuilding (and powerlifers during cuts) almost always track their food. Some may be more precise than others and long time vets may not count in calories but have experience and knowledge to know how much food they need to eat each day to achieve their current goals. CICO is the foundation of almost any diet regime used by these guys, and it allows them to drop and gain double digits in weight multiple times during the year, at will. I’ve done it myself multiple times as well. There’s a reason they do it and given it’s basically their jobs to control their body weight, I’m keen to trust their results.

Now obviously that’s a bit different than your average Joe just wanting to sit in a healthy body fat range (let’s say 12-16% for men). To achieve that he may just need to do some trial and error with food intake and will eventually find the balance to maintain that range, assuming he’s already in it. If he’s overweight then he’ll need to shed fat and for that CICO is the obvious answer. Same with if he chooses to bulk.

I don’t disagree with you at all regarding the limitations of CICO. What you eat can have a tremendous effect on how you feel and your overall health. But if we are talking strictly about weight loss/gain, the most important factor is CICO. You can do a lot of other things right but if you get CICO wrong and are eating at maintenance when you planned for a deficit (for example) you simply won’t hit your goals. If I’m are eating at a surplus, I simply can’t lose weight/fat. Science is a bitch sometimes.


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[mikiemo83]

A friend did WW and it was a lot of changing numbers based on what physical activities you do. There was a baseline number of points but if you ran 5 miles you were given "X" number of points to add to your baseline number.

She did it to be able to enjoy a real meal during the day, not dinner.

Certain veggies were basically no points but they would fill you up, I think broccoli was one she could eat with no issues, I really didn't pay full attention to her diet.

 

[BostonTim]

A friend did WW and it was a lot of changing numbers based on what physical activities you do. There was a baseline number of points but if you ran 5 miles you were given "X" number of points to add to your baseline number.

She did it to be able to enjoy a real meal during the day, not dinner.

Certain veggies were basically no points but they would fill you up, I think broccoli was one she could eat with no issues, I really didn't pay full attention to her diet.

Hey. This may be perfect. All my life I've felt intuitively that eating broccoli is pointless. :shrug:

Cheers

 

[Jaric]

I am talking about general health Moose, but I'm also talking about weight loss.

If you focus only on calories you won't achieve the same weight loss results as you would if you focused on where those calories come from.

Sugar specifically for a couple reasons. First, intake of high carb/ high sugar foods causes your body to crave more of that. It's a hormonal response that was a biological adaptation for most of human existence when high sugar foods weren't in high supply and calories mattered so when you found some, you should eat as much as you could.

That's why it's super easy to crush a whole bag of Doritos even if you're not hungry.

If you read any of the literature on how effective people are at accurately counting the number of calories they intake, you'll get super skeptical hippo eyes about if those 2000 calories you think you took in was actually 2000 calories. We're pretty universally terrible at it.

The cool thing though, is if you're eating what you're supposed to instead of garbage, it's almost impossible to over eat. Conversely, if you're eating garbage, it's nearly impossible not to over eat. That's why I'm saying if you want to lose weight it's more important to focus on what you're eating instead of how much you're eating.

If you're eating the right things, how much of it you're eating kinda takes care of itself.

Again, try eating 3k calories with just eggs. Good luck with that. (FYI, that's about 42 eggs a day)

 

[mooseontheloose]

Plenty of quality foods are high in calories though. I've bulked on 3500 calories before and ate minimal junk doing it. I've also cut just fine with a scoop or two of ice cream in my smoothie every day.

I think you're just conflating the issues. If a person accurately tracks their calories and DOESN'T overeat then they will lose weight, regardless of what the food is.

Of course it's much easier to stick to your calories eating wholesome, filling foods rather than junk but that doesn't mean you can't lose weight doing the opposite. Sugar contributes to health problems and cravings but there's no legit evidence that IF you avoid the cravings and stick within your calories that you can't lose weight including sugar in your diet. Of course that doesn't mean one should eat nothing but cereal all day, but taking it to that extreme is somewhat disingenuous.

Let's assume that I eat fairly well - avoid junk food, focus on meat, eggs, nuts, potatoes/rice, fruits and veggies, etc. Let's say I want to adjust my weight. How do I do that? I'm already eating the right foods so what do I do? The answer is tracking calories - surplus to bulk, deficit to cut.

Moreover, tracking calories is pretty straight forward assuming you have a food scale and app. Plus, if you're tracking is a bit off but you eat the same foods regularly, it doesn't matter because you'll adjust based on your progress. Let's say your TDEE is 2000 and you want to gain 1 lb per week so you set your daily goal at 2500 calories. Now if after a few weeks my tracking of something is off and causes me to be on pace to gain 6 lbs per month then I simply lower my daily calories down slightly and continue on until I'm gaining the amount planned.

It's incredibly simple and I've personally done it multiple times with a variety of different diets. Pretty much everyone I know who lifts has had the same success. Reddit, BodyBuilding.com, etc. are full of people who use the same strategy to control their weights and all have success despite eating different foods. I agree completely that food quality is huge for overall health, AND that choice of foods can impact one's likelihood of success. But at the end of the day CICO is science and guides weight gain and loss above everything else. Like I said, assume I have the perfect diet but want to adjust my weight/composition. If I do anything but adjust my calories I will fail.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

The idea that doctors get kickbacks from Big Pharm is idiotic. But then again, considering the source...


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They absolutely do...you're only fooling yourself. Congrats.They don't hire hot, attractive babes in medical sales for shits and giggles.

 

[mooseontheloose]

They absolutely do...you're only fooling yourself. Congrats.They don't hire hot, attractive babes in medical sales for shit and giggles.

Hey, Penny is married to a scientist so she can't be that dumb

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

The only "diet" that really works is dramatically cutting down on the amount you eat, i.e. calories and eating the right foods.

We know this becuase the only really large detailed study of this effect was uin Cuba when they went through a severe deceline after the USSR fell. Because they have excellent medical doctors there, an in depth study was made and the results were dramatic.



https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...improved-when-their-economy-collapsed/275080/

Yeah...I would agree with this.

Most overweight people generally eat way more than they need. And their food is null of the necessary nutrients.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

Hey, Penny is married to a scientist so she can't be that dumb

This sounds like a TV show... is she a blonde with big...smiles?

 

[Jaric]

I think you're just conflating the issues. If a person accurately tracks their calories and DOESN'T overeat then they will lose weight, regardless of what the food is.

Thing is moose, almost no one accurately tracks calories. Even professional athletes can struggle. Furthermore, most people don't have the willpower to fight off the urges to binge their brain sends out when they eat junk. Especially people that have been eating junk most of their lives.

I get that some people are able to accurately count calories and have the discipline to do so for the rest of their lives. Most people however do not. At least most people who've already established poor eating habits.

I suppose to put another way, you're way more likely to obtain a favorable CICO balance if you change what you're eating as opposed to simply trying to rely on will power and counting calories.

 

[EasyBigFella]

I'm starting to think that some of my fellow pats fans believe anything the media feeds them. Again. Brady does resistance training which is raved about by popular fitness mags and experts. If Brady thinks the training helps, and so far its hard to argue with the success who gives a flying fuck what he does as long as its legal. Tying Edelman's PED bust to it is a Volin, Dan S column waiting to happen. The boston media is finally getting its way.

Ah, the Pats fan 'kool aid/everyone is out to get us' defense. You have a guy who has been investigated by the FTC for making several false claims (including lying that he was a 'doctor') and you are under the illusion there's no chance this clown could make false claims to Brady and push something illegal on his to help his brand? Yikes.

 

[BostonTim]

Elixir Guerrero tossed Jules Edelman under the bus with his response:

"I’ve known Julian since his rookie year and he is a phenomenal athlete who takes his training seriously — it’s disappointing to hear today’s news,” Guerrero said in the statement issued Thursday night. “Elite athletes sometimes work with multiple coaches and health professionals as part of their off-season training."

"Here at our facility, we take a natural, holistic, appropriate and, above all, legal approach to training and recovery for all of our clients,” he continued. “And anyone who would suggest otherwise is irresponsible, and just plain wrong.”

or

'Don't blame me he took something, I didn't give it to him it is his other trainers fault"


when; "sorry to hear about this, I will wait for the news to settle and I know more before commenting" is all he had to say but he was protecting his Voodoo witchcraft.

You may be leaving out the part where the entire worldwide Patriot Destruction Alliance landed on him, so hard and fast, that's it's a miracle he managed to squeeze out any sort of defense

Also, what makes you think that undefended unfounded attacks on the TB12s will settle anytime soon. :shrug:

 

[Hawg73]

A friend did WW and it was a lot of changing numbers based on what physical activities you do. There was a baseline number of points but if you ran 5 miles you were given "X" number of points to add to your baseline number.

She did it to be able to enjoy a real meal during the day, not dinner.

Certain veggies were basically no points but they would fill you up, I think broccoli was one she could eat with no issues, I really didn't pay full attention to her diet.

You're right about the broccoli and there is a lot of stuff that you can eat a bunch of without worrying in their current program, including skinless chicken and shrimp.

I cook WW recipes almost every night and actually prefer them to eating in restaurants. They taste cleaner, are satisfying and process better. I've lost 22 pounds over the last 14 months which I think is the healthier way to go than one of my brothers who lost 70 pounds in less than a year on the "Tito's Vodka Diet". That's way too fast, although I think he's kidding about the booze.

I consider WW an excellent, smart program based on solid science. It's not hard to follow, but you have to make an effort, mostly planning and finding fresh recipes so you don't get bored with the same old stuff. It's not really designed for dudes. Going to meetings with my wife the ratio is about 20 to 1 females, but it works so I keep going.

I didn't go for 6 months last year and put on 2.5 pounds. My wife was pissed that I didn't gain more. At some point, the stuff you learn starts to stick and I sort of followed it even when I wasn't weighing in.

Tonight is Asian Steak Salad. It's good for you and fucking delicious.

 

[Jaric]

That's awesome Hawg!