Watch for Robert Kraft to bend over for Bob NcNair
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I guess he knows all too well what it's like to be slurring words in public
To be fair - Kraft has publicly slurred his words (to my best recollection) after winning Super Bowls. McNair publicly slurred his words on a random Tuesday afternoon.
foley11
I am anti progress
Since when has being fair, or even having a moderate opinion about an issue, ever been part of a football message board?
This is the home of kneejerk over reaction.
bsaeagle64
Active member
Think about it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Goodell said to Mr. Kraft, off the record of course as he wouldn't want it in writing or recorded, that if the Patriots took the hit, Brady would be absolved of any guilt, and Mr. Kraft took him at his word. Goodell then decided that he didn't care what he said to Mr. Kraft and decided that he had to take TB to task. I think this was the plan all along - including the possibility of legal proceedings, because the NFL thought TB wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
subroc
Interested Observer
SStradley responds to McNair's comments
Issues with Bob McNair Deflategate Comments
During the Texans Team Luncheon, Texans owner Bob McNair answered a variety of questions from Houston Sports Radio 610’s Mike Meltser and Seth Payne. Of greater interest to national fans were the Bob McNair Deflategate comments.
The comments aren’t surprising, except that he talked about the situation in more depth than most owners would. I do not think he was expecting those questions.
In general, McNair tends to be open with his comments, often more open than what his coaches sometimes would prefer. This is likely one of those times given that the Texans play the Patriots this season.
McNair’s Comments Perfectly Show the Problems with the Process.
In any event, the Bob McNair Deflategate comments are a great illustration of the naiveté most owners have with the NFL discipline process. Robert Kraft and Tom Brady thought if they were fully cooperative, they would be shown to be innocent. They were both caught off-guard with the peculiar direction that the NFL took in its investigation.
That is, the NFL ignored direct testimony denying the acts. And with no real evidence, the NFL looped together timeline and text messages assumptions and then combined them with a scientific-sounding report that would never be admissible in an actual courtroom.
What all fanbases and owners miss out on is that unless you read all the documents of various -gates and have the expertise to know what they mean, you likely do not see how manipulative and unfair the NFL discipline process is. And by the time you see it firsthand, your team has already been harmed. For a short explanation of this mindset, please read my Houston Chronicle column, “Why the Deflategate case matters.”
Where Bob McNair is coming from now is where Robert Kraft was before Deflategate. Company guy who thinks Roger Goodell is a good man, doing things in a fair way, with tough discipline decisions for the benefit of all.
Full Bob McNair Transcript.
The following is a transcript of Bob McNair’s full answers relating to Deflategate with my annotations in blue. It was part of a much larger conversation. Full answers give more context too.
If this were a courtroom, the objection to a lot of this is, “Assumes facts not in evidence.” Remember, McNair is likely relying on NFL and media reports of the facts–many of them disputed, misstated publicly, or just wrong.
Mike Meltser: “You mentioned that you talked to the Commissioner this morning, from a big picture standpoint, do you think it’s good for the business of the NFL to have Deflategate go on this long seemingly with no real end in sight?”
Bob McNair: “No, I don’t.” [Um, the NFL is in key position to settle this quickly, Mr. McNair]
“I think we [the NFL] could have handled it better, I think the Patriots could have handled it better, I think Brady could have handled it better.” [Ya think?]
“You know, when you look back on it, if Brady had just said ‘Look, my guys know I like a softer ball, and that’s what I like, and so they do it. But I don’t go out and check the pressure of the balls, I don’t know that,’ I don’t think there would been an issue. It would have been a problem with the guys on the training staff who deflated the balls, and the Patriots would have got some kind of minor penalty, it wouldn’t have been a big deal.” [What if Brady said the truth? Oh and when does Goodell ever give out minor penalties? He gave a 4 games suspension to a GM who text messaged instead of walking down the hall].
“But what escalated the whole thing is that Brady and the Patriots were going to cooperate fully, and then when it came down to it, they didn’t. And that’s what really upset the Commissioner.” [There was a legitimate dispute about the extent of cooperation. Discovery disputes are common. In normal litigation, there are sane remedies. And if “upsetting” the Commissioner is the standard for punishment, all teams and players are at risk].
Meltser: “One thing I wonder about is, Ted Wells told Tom Brady that he felt that Brady was fully cooperative and seems like a major reason he got four games is that Roger Goodell said he was not cooperative. Let’s say Tom Brady was J.J. Watt, would you feel comfortable with the level of due process that has been afforded Tom Brady through this process?”
McNair: “Well, if it was J.J. Watt, I think he would have been cooperative, and it wouldn’t be a question. I don’t think J.J. would destroy his cell phone. So, you know, that wasn’t a good sign. If people had nothing to be concerned about why would a person do that?” [1. Brady didn’t “destroy” the cell phone. b. Brady has obvious privacy concerns] So it just doesn’t pass the smell test. [No pass smell test=4 game suspension, millions of dollars of salary?].
“Is there anything conclusive there? No, you don’t have any conclusive evidence. [!!!] But the whole idea is we want to make sure we have a competitive playing field that’s level for everybody and so we don’t want people breaking the rules. And, even though, obviously, it didn’t impact the outcome of the game, I mean the Patriots just killed them. And so, that’s not really the issue. But in the minds of somebody in that organization, they thought it would give them a competitive advantage, and that’s why they did it. So you just want to eliminate that kind of situation if you can.” [“The NFL needs to enforce all rules harshly even if they didn’t matter because of no coherent reason I can articulate”].
The takeaway from McNair’s comments?
It is an interesting look into how at least one of 31 owners see this. A huge contrast from how Robert Kraft sees it.
In my time following the team, Bob McNair has struck me as a reasonable person, who wants to do the right thing, and wants to be a good team-player owner. I think this Deflategate matter puts someone with that mindset in a bad spot. I think he honestly feels the way he said based on the information that he knows and has been given. But it is hard to justify when you say it out loud.
As a Texans fan, and a fan of the NFL, it concerns me how naive the owner mindset of “Hey if we just cooperate with Roger Goodell, we will get a fair hearing and minor discipline at worst.” That all comes from the wrong assumption that if you don’t cheat, you are safe. But that isn’t the case if the arbitrary and bad notice process problems make claims of actual innocence impossible to maintain.
Process matters. But process problems in both the criminal justice system and in the NFL discipline system are harder to articulate than inaccurate destroyed phone kind of headlines. The affected teams sees it. Their fans see it. And their concerns are blown off as just being biased.
And in the meantime, the rest of the owners are just trying to be good team players. Who would be better off not trying to explain the inexplicable.
http://www.stradleylaw.com/bob-mcnair-deflategate-comments/
Issues with Bob McNair Deflategate Comments
During the Texans Team Luncheon, Texans owner Bob McNair answered a variety of questions from Houston Sports Radio 610’s Mike Meltser and Seth Payne. Of greater interest to national fans were the Bob McNair Deflategate comments.The comments aren’t surprising, except that he talked about the situation in more depth than most owners would. I do not think he was expecting those questions.
In general, McNair tends to be open with his comments, often more open than what his coaches sometimes would prefer. This is likely one of those times given that the Texans play the Patriots this season.
McNair’s Comments Perfectly Show the Problems with the Process.
In any event, the Bob McNair Deflategate comments are a great illustration of the naiveté most owners have with the NFL discipline process. Robert Kraft and Tom Brady thought if they were fully cooperative, they would be shown to be innocent. They were both caught off-guard with the peculiar direction that the NFL took in its investigation.
That is, the NFL ignored direct testimony denying the acts. And with no real evidence, the NFL looped together timeline and text messages assumptions and then combined them with a scientific-sounding report that would never be admissible in an actual courtroom.
What all fanbases and owners miss out on is that unless you read all the documents of various -gates and have the expertise to know what they mean, you likely do not see how manipulative and unfair the NFL discipline process is. And by the time you see it firsthand, your team has already been harmed. For a short explanation of this mindset, please read my Houston Chronicle column, “Why the Deflategate case matters.”
Where Bob McNair is coming from now is where Robert Kraft was before Deflategate. Company guy who thinks Roger Goodell is a good man, doing things in a fair way, with tough discipline decisions for the benefit of all.
Full Bob McNair Transcript.
The following is a transcript of Bob McNair’s full answers relating to Deflategate with my annotations in blue. It was part of a much larger conversation. Full answers give more context too.
If this were a courtroom, the objection to a lot of this is, “Assumes facts not in evidence.” Remember, McNair is likely relying on NFL and media reports of the facts–many of them disputed, misstated publicly, or just wrong.
Mike Meltser: “You mentioned that you talked to the Commissioner this morning, from a big picture standpoint, do you think it’s good for the business of the NFL to have Deflategate go on this long seemingly with no real end in sight?”
Bob McNair: “No, I don’t.” [Um, the NFL is in key position to settle this quickly, Mr. McNair]
“I think we [the NFL] could have handled it better, I think the Patriots could have handled it better, I think Brady could have handled it better.” [Ya think?]
“You know, when you look back on it, if Brady had just said ‘Look, my guys know I like a softer ball, and that’s what I like, and so they do it. But I don’t go out and check the pressure of the balls, I don’t know that,’ I don’t think there would been an issue. It would have been a problem with the guys on the training staff who deflated the balls, and the Patriots would have got some kind of minor penalty, it wouldn’t have been a big deal.” [What if Brady said the truth? Oh and when does Goodell ever give out minor penalties? He gave a 4 games suspension to a GM who text messaged instead of walking down the hall].
“But what escalated the whole thing is that Brady and the Patriots were going to cooperate fully, and then when it came down to it, they didn’t. And that’s what really upset the Commissioner.” [There was a legitimate dispute about the extent of cooperation. Discovery disputes are common. In normal litigation, there are sane remedies. And if “upsetting” the Commissioner is the standard for punishment, all teams and players are at risk].
Meltser: “One thing I wonder about is, Ted Wells told Tom Brady that he felt that Brady was fully cooperative and seems like a major reason he got four games is that Roger Goodell said he was not cooperative. Let’s say Tom Brady was J.J. Watt, would you feel comfortable with the level of due process that has been afforded Tom Brady through this process?”
McNair: “Well, if it was J.J. Watt, I think he would have been cooperative, and it wouldn’t be a question. I don’t think J.J. would destroy his cell phone. So, you know, that wasn’t a good sign. If people had nothing to be concerned about why would a person do that?” [1. Brady didn’t “destroy” the cell phone. b. Brady has obvious privacy concerns] So it just doesn’t pass the smell test. [No pass smell test=4 game suspension, millions of dollars of salary?].
“Is there anything conclusive there? No, you don’t have any conclusive evidence. [!!!] But the whole idea is we want to make sure we have a competitive playing field that’s level for everybody and so we don’t want people breaking the rules. And, even though, obviously, it didn’t impact the outcome of the game, I mean the Patriots just killed them. And so, that’s not really the issue. But in the minds of somebody in that organization, they thought it would give them a competitive advantage, and that’s why they did it. So you just want to eliminate that kind of situation if you can.” [“The NFL needs to enforce all rules harshly even if they didn’t matter because of no coherent reason I can articulate”].
The takeaway from McNair’s comments?
It is an interesting look into how at least one of 31 owners see this. A huge contrast from how Robert Kraft sees it.
In my time following the team, Bob McNair has struck me as a reasonable person, who wants to do the right thing, and wants to be a good team-player owner. I think this Deflategate matter puts someone with that mindset in a bad spot. I think he honestly feels the way he said based on the information that he knows and has been given. But it is hard to justify when you say it out loud.
As a Texans fan, and a fan of the NFL, it concerns me how naive the owner mindset of “Hey if we just cooperate with Roger Goodell, we will get a fair hearing and minor discipline at worst.” That all comes from the wrong assumption that if you don’t cheat, you are safe. But that isn’t the case if the arbitrary and bad notice process problems make claims of actual innocence impossible to maintain.
Process matters. But process problems in both the criminal justice system and in the NFL discipline system are harder to articulate than inaccurate destroyed phone kind of headlines. The affected teams sees it. Their fans see it. And their concerns are blown off as just being biased.
And in the meantime, the rest of the owners are just trying to be good team players. Who would be better off not trying to explain the inexplicable.
http://www.stradleylaw.com/bob-mcnair-deflategate-comments/
And THIS is why whatever he says at this point is to be taken with a glacier sized grain of salt.
DeflatedFan
Active member
I don't know what you'd expect him to say. McNair is just doing the same thing Kraft has done during the Bountygate and bullygate frame jobs. Eating up what the NFL PR machine is dishing out, not really paying any attention to the details, and assuming the people they've delegated that kind of thing to are doing their jobs.
RIBeastie
Funny, the Texans had their own deflategate back in 2006 but no one remembers that David Carr admitted asking his ball boys to let some air out of their footballs. No one remembers this scandal because no punishment was given..not even a warning! So how can Brady be suspended 4 games and Patriots fined $1million plus 2 draft picks? As for the integrity of the game, the texans have had several PED violations! #FreeBrady
http://www.csnne.com/new-england-pa...g_comment_id=ed709a7d8c644acf8c168cb1babeeef6
Funny, the Texans had their own deflategate back in 2006 but no one remembers that David Carr admitted asking his ball boys to let some air out of their footballs. No one remembers this scandal because no punishment was given..not even a warning! So how can Brady be suspended 4 games and Patriots fined $1million plus 2 draft picks? As for the integrity of the game, the texans have had several PED violations! #FreeBrady
http://www.csnne.com/new-england-pa...g_comment_id=ed709a7d8c644acf8c168cb1babeeef6
subroc
Interested Observer
Agree. He is trying to serve 2 masters. He is trying to get in line with the 32, be a good team mate to the 32. On the other hand he is trying to demonstrate his loyalty to the fan base. By accepting the punishment HE created or at least increased a perception of guilt that can not be erased.
aloyouis
at least generally aware
Agree with all of this.
He is a business man. He owns something that is worth a BILLION dollars. Much of that valuation is DEPENDENT on the LEAGUE and its ability to collect the entire league fan base's dollars.
I am as big a Patriots fan as almost anyone.
If I were Kraft, I would protect my property's value.
He is walking a fine line. Some of you don't like how he attempting to do this. Many of you on this thread, like Goodell, are acting as judge, jury and executioner. You don't know all the facts nor do you have his risk.
Ironic.
Other than hiring Belichick, what exactly has he done so well? Just because I accept his apology, doesn't mean that I forget about the ridiculously foolish decision he made, or think that he couldn't do it again.
He's made plenty of incredibly foolish decisions in the past, like siding with the incompetent Bobby Grier over Bill Parcells, and then siding with him again over Pete Carroll.
I'm not assuming he'll get this one right until he actually does.
subroc
Interested Observer
Clearly, none of us has any money invested in this and therefore very much risk invested in all this. We are, after all, just fans. In my view, trying to serve 2 masters rarely works. Further, if he believed he was innocent, he should have stood his ground, gone to court and battled. Sometimes, in life, you have to stand up and be counted. His getting in line with the 32 served no one well, least of all Tom Brady and the Patriots organization. His downside would have been the same. His upside would have been an opportunity to cleanse the league front office who have demonstrated vitriol and disdain for his team for years.
Darth Despot
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Bob Kraft had every right to protect his investment, but every decision has consequences.
Bob totally missed how angry the fan base was about this whole thing. When he realized where his customers were at, he realized he needed to realign himself with them an not with his partners. I have to assume a few of his fellow owners are enjoying his comeuppance. If this BS were happening to some other team he would be making the EXACT same statement as McNair.
Bob is in a really tough spot here. If he's seen as being a "team player" with the other 31 he risks losing paying customers. I know a lot of folks think it won't happen in the long run but I have talked to several long-time ticket holders who have made if clear that if there is a banner raised on opening night and Brady isn't there that they are not renewing.
What's happening behind closed doors is anyone's guess, but don't forget, when Bob went rouge it was not just lip service. The emails regarding "2 lbs under" were the beginning of the NFL losing control of the message.
I will cut Kraft some slack for the moment, but I'm watching.
Bob totally missed how angry the fan base was about this whole thing. When he realized where his customers were at, he realized he needed to realign himself with them an not with his partners. I have to assume a few of his fellow owners are enjoying his comeuppance. If this BS were happening to some other team he would be making the EXACT same statement as McNair.
Bob is in a really tough spot here. If he's seen as being a "team player" with the other 31 he risks losing paying customers. I know a lot of folks think it won't happen in the long run but I have talked to several long-time ticket holders who have made if clear that if there is a banner raised on opening night and Brady isn't there that they are not renewing.
What's happening behind closed doors is anyone's guess, but don't forget, when Bob went rouge it was not just lip service. The emails regarding "2 lbs under" were the beginning of the NFL losing control of the message.
I will cut Kraft some slack for the moment, but I'm watching.
aloyouis
at least generally aware
Clearly you miss the main point of my post. He may have in fact put the NFL on par with the Patriots as part of his Billion dollar decision making. I can't and won't fault him for this. If you had a the same risk you would be a fool to make a different decision.
Haters: please fill the rest of us in on ALL of the information, since you have it and are basing your decision on this info the rest of us don't have.
If you can't say you know everything that has occurred than what logic is there in basing a decision of the less than 100% of the facts?
You are passing judgment on Mr. Kraft as fans with little to no regard to Mr. Kraft as the owner. Put yourself in his shoes from a business perspective.
Would you rather Kraft act like Dan Snyder, Jerry Johnson or Woody Johnson? Frankly, you're giving Kraft far too little credit for the good things he's done to help this club win Super Bowls and sustain a level of excellence for 15 years.
He has acted like Snyder and Jones (while I'm not so sure about Woody Johnson). Jones and Snyder bent over and took it, when Kraft (and other owners) went after Snyder and Jones for violating the imaginary cap in the last CBA, when that CBA clearly stated that last year would not have a cap.
The only thing that kept the NFLPA from suing the owners for collusion (which they should have BTW), was the owners raising the cap in the first year of the new (current) CBA, in exchange for not suing when they went after Jones, Snyder, (and I think Davis in Oakland).
Kraft hasn't meddled in how BB runs his team. :taptaptap:
Bending over and taking it is something the NFL Franchise Agreement is iron clad about. Team owners are forbidden to sue the NFL or any individual employee of the NFL or any other owner. That's in black and white and you can thank ADavis for that.
Some of us agree, some of us disagree, and some are somewhere in the middle. No one is going to change the other sides mind, and it just becomes a circular argument. Can't we all just agree to disagree, and move on, instead of rehashing this argument for the umpteenth time?
And yes I know I don't have to click on the thread nor read the responses. I am certainly not condemning any side they all have their valid points. Are ya ready for some football!
~Dee~
And yes I know I don't have to click on the thread nor read the responses. I am certainly not condemning any side they all have their valid points. Are ya ready for some football!
~Dee~