NBA Finals - Cleveland vs Golden State

[O.Z.O.]

laker lebron with ball and his papa would be awesome

View attachment 99474

 

[EasyBigFella]

LeBron James is not the "Greatest of all time". He can't hold Jordan's jock and I'd put him behind both Bird and Johnson in the GOAT pecking order. I can't even imagine how badly he'd get destroyed if he played in the glory days of the 80's against the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons or Bulls. He's a great player (in this specific era), but that's about it.

 

[O.Z.O.]

LeBron James is not the "Greatest of all time". He can't hold Jordan's jock and I'd put him behind both Bird and Johnson in the GOAT pecking order. I can't even imagine how badly he'd get destroyed if he played in the glory days of the 80's against the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons or Bulls. He's a great player (in this specific era), but that's about it.

Those Celtics and Pistons teams would physically beat the shit out of him. Those Lakers teams would have his tongue hanging out by the end of the 3rd quarter from trying to keep up with them up and down the court. The Bulls would be a combination of the other three in addition to having the GOAT lighting it up and taking over the game in crunch time.

My big issue with the LeBron nuthuugers and fanboys is all the 30 and under crowd who like to say that MJ wasn't all that because LeBron has played more games and has scored more points. As I told one of them, unless you saw Jordan play, and I don't mean happening to be in front of a TV set when you were 5 years old...shit, I was 4 1/2 when the Jets won SB III. I'm sure I was in front of the TV, probably even watched a few plays but had no clue as to what was going on...I mean actually understanding and retaining what you were watching...then your opinion is meaningless to me. LeBron totally bitched out in Game 3. If he takes over there and wills Cleveland to a win it changes the entire dynamic of the series. To me, that is his ultimate defining moment...total bitch.

 

[Patriots71]

Those Celtics and Pistons teams would physically beat the shit out of him. Those Lakers teams would have his tongue hanging out by the end of the 3rd quarter from trying to keep up with them up and down the court. The Bulls would be a combination of the other three in addition to having the GOAT lighting it up and taking over the game in crunch time.

My big issue with the LeBron nuthuugers and fanboys is all the 30 and under crowd who like to say that MJ wasn't all that because LeBron has played more games and has scored more points. As I told one of them, unless you saw Jordan play, and I don't mean happening to be in front of a TV set when you were 5 years old...shit, I was 4 1/2 when the Jets won SB III. I'm sure I was in front of the TV, probably even watched a few plays but had no clue as to what was going on...I mean actually understanding and retaining what you were watching...then your opinion is meaningless to me. LeBron totally bitched out in Game 3. If he takes over there and wills Cleveland to a win it changes the entire dynamic of the series. To me, that is his ultimate defining moment...total bitch.

Jordan was an assassin. You ever see a finals where another player on the bulls had to score 40 in order for Jordan to get the win? Yeah this is no contest to me.

 

[TommyD420]

Those Celtics and Pistons teams would physically beat the shit out of him.

He's 6'9" 265. No. That's false.

 

[PatsFan09]

He's 6'9" 265. No. That's false.

I think he's relatively soft, to be honest. And let's admit it: he's never played against defenses that could beat the crap out of him like the teams of the 80's/early 90's. It's an interesting question. We'll never know the answer, but there's many (including myself) who think that he would have a much more difficult time playing those kinds of defenses.

Again, impossible to know the answer though.

 

[TommyD420]

]I think he's relatively soft, to be honest. [/B] And let's admit it: he's never played against defenses that could beat the crap out of him like the teams of the 80's/early 90's. It's an interesting question. We'll never know the answer, but there's many (including myself) who think that he would have a much more difficult time playing those kinds of defenses.

Again, impossible to know the answer though.

Please list the games he's missed due to injury.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

That guy has Shaq rules. He's hammered every time he's near the basket, and doesn't get calls because he's so big.

Sure, teams from the 80s and 90s got away with more physical play around the basket, but at the same time, you had a Jordan or Pippen or McHale or Ainge or Ewing or Dennis ****ing Rodman or Terry Cummings or Dr. J crying for calls all the time as well. The romanticizing is inevitable, I guess, but I think it's important to put things in perspective.

Michael Jordan actually did miss shots. So did Larry Bird. I'd love to have those guys taking the last shot for me (Bird more than Jordan, because Bird could hit from anywhere with guys hanging on him). They lost playoff series. They didn't play for other teams (well Jordan did, and his numbers with the Wizards were better than you remember for a guy his age), but there was no free agency, although there was the Bird Rule.

James was 10th this year in free throws attempted (Thomas was 7th, Harden and Westbrook were separated from everyone else at 1st and 2nd), and led the league in minutes played.

Sorry, I don't buy the soft argument. I just don't. James Harden? Soft as puppy shit. You can physically dominate that guy. I've yet to see a player physically dominate Lebron James. It just doesn't happen.

 

[O.Z.O.]

He's 6'9" 265. No. That's false.

McHale, Parrish and Laimbeer were all bigger than that. On top of that, Detroit would have rotated Salley, Bedford, and Hastings off the bench to absorb fouls. Those Celtics teams had Greg Kite and Bill Walton. The game was much more physical in those days.

Of course, given that dynamic, it's reasonable to expect James would have been a more physical player as well.

 

[O.Z.O.]

Sorry, I don't buy the soft argument. I just don't. James Harden? Soft as puppy shit. You can physically dominate that guy. I've yet to see a player physically dominate Lebron James. It just doesn't happen.

The only way I'll say that James is soft is that he has a history of going in to bitch mode at crunch time. Game 3 should be a stain on his legacy forever. If he steps up, takes over and wills his team to a win in that game (something we all know Bird, MJ, Magic, Kobe would have all done) it changes the dynamic of that series. All of a sudden, it's 2-1 with Game 4 in Cleveland.

Sure, from a physical standpoint the guy is a tank, but he has never really shown that he has that assassin's mindset.

 

[mooseontheloose]

McHale, Parrish and Laimbeer were all bigger than that. On top of that, Detroit would have rotated Salley, Bedford, and Hastings off the bench to absorb fouls. Those Celtics teams had Greg Kite and Bill Walton. The game was much more physical in those days.

Of course, given that dynamic, it's reasonable to expect James would have been a more physical player as well.

It's no different than saying Wayne Gretzky would suck in today's game because goalies are competent, players are stronger/more skilled and stars aren't protected by enforcers anymore.

Maybe he would suck. Or maybe he'd retain the skill he had but have adapted other skills or traits as a product of today's environment. How many of today's NBA stars do you think could step in and play against those 80s/90s defenses and not struggle? It shouldn't be shocking because they've grown up and excelled in entirely different environments. But that doesn't mean some of them wouldn't have still been stars if they'd grown up and played back then, but their games may not look exactly as they do today.

Comparing eras is typically a fool's errand.

 

[TommyD420]

McHale, Parrish and Laimbeer were all bigger than that. On top of that, Detroit would have rotated Salley, Bedford, and Hastings off the bench to absorb fouls. Those Celtics teams had Greg Kite and Bill Walton. The game was much more physical in those days.

Listed Playing Weights:

Kevin McHale: 6'10" 210 lbs
Robert Parish: 7'0" 231 lbs
Bill Laimbeer: 6'11" 245 lbs
John Salley: 6'11" 230 lbs
William Bedford: 7'0" 225 lbs
Scott Hastings: 6'10" 235 lbs
Greg Kite: 6'11" 250 lbs
Bill Walton: 6'11" 210 lbs

Lebron James: 6'8" 260, ****ing jacked, with the benefit of actual nutrition and training programs, and not gunning butts and beer at halftime, can out jump and out run every single one of those guys by a wide margin. Unless McHale and Walton were going to limp after him on their respective broken feet?

Sorry. It's just not reality. The game was absolutely more physical, yes. But "Lebron James is soft" and "Lebron James couldn't play in that era", a mid-range shooter, passer and rebounder, who is a thicker, more athletic Magic Johnson? Yeah, he's soft.

If you hate the guy, you can hate the guy (although I don't understand it), he's no more egocentric than any other player in the NBA (have you heard Isaiah Thomas of the Celtics talk?) - he's routinely the best player on the floor, and his game translates to many different eras.

Steph Curry could only play now. Kevin Durant could only play now. You want to talk about a physical game? Steph Curry would be lucky to play 20 games a year. DJ or Ron Harper would embarrass him. Durant would get shots off, but he would be dominated in the post (because they actually had post games then). A 7 footer who's a passive rebounder? That wouldn't fly in previous eras.

 

[O.Z.O.]

Listed Playing Weights:

Kevin McHale: 6'10" 210 lbs
Robert Parish: 7'0" 231 lbs
Bill Laimbeer: 6'11" 245 lbs
John Salley: 6'11" 230 lbs
William Bedford: 7'0" 225 lbs
Scott Hastings: 6'10" 235 lbs
Greg Kite: 6'11" 250 lbs
Bill Walton: 6'11" 210 lbs

Lebron James: 6'8" 260, ****ing jacked, with the benefit of actual nutrition and training programs, and not gunning butts and beer at halftime, can out jump and out run every single one of those guys by a wide margin. Unless McHale and Walton were going to limp after him on their respective broken feet?

Sorry. It's just not reality. The game was absolutely more physical, yes. But "Lebron James is soft" and "Lebron James couldn't play in that era", a mid-range shooter, passer and rebounder, who is a thicker, more athletic Magic Johnson? Yeah, he's soft. :eyeroll:

If you hate the guy, you can hate the guy (although I don't understand it), he's no more egocentric than any other player in the NBA (have you heard Isaiah Thomas of the Celtics talk?) - he's routinely the best player on the floor, and his game translates to many different eras.

Steph Curry could only play now. Kevin Durant could only play now. You want to talk about a physical game? Steph Curry would be lucky to play 20 games a year. DJ or Ron Harper would embarrass him. Durant would get shots off, but he would be dominated in the post (because they actually had post games then). A 7 footer who's a passive rebounder? That wouldn't fly in previous eras.

I qualified all of that with this line-

Of course, given that dynamic, it's reasonable to expect James would have been a more physical player as well.

I definitely don't hate James. I just think his game comes up short in the biggest spots. As Pats fans (and Boston based sports fans in general), we look at things through the lens of championships. He has some, but he's lacking.

 

[mooseontheloose]

He did fold in Game 3, but overall his performances in championships have been pretty strong aside from perhaps his first. When he's lost he's lost to strong teams from a strong conference generally.

I mean, to be fair, Brady wasn't great in his SB losses. He was good and got leads at the end, but was also pretty ineffective for long periods.

LeBron literally needed to score 60 a night to beat this GS team. He wasn't perfect but he did as much as you could ask a single player to do, and usually does in the playoffs/Finals. Not that he doesn't deserve criticism at times.

He'd played 14 seasons and been to the Finals 8 times. We all talk up Tom for doing something similar - being so consistently competitive. Obviously Tom has the edge for finishing the job more and being the GOAT, but LeBron's generally not losing Finals because he doesn't show up.

 

[Mazz22]

He did fold in Game 3, but overall his performances in championships have been pretty strong aside from perhaps his first. When he's lost he's lost to strong teams from a strong conference generally.

I mean, to be fair, Brady wasn't great in his SB losses. He was good and got leads at the end, but was also pretty ineffective for long periods.

LeBron literally needed to score 60 a night to beat this GS team. He wasn't perfect but he did as much as you could ask a single player to do, and usually does in the playoffs/Finals. Not that he doesn't deserve criticism at times.

He'd played 14 seasons and been to the Finals 8 times. We all talk up Tom for doing something similar - being so consistently competitive. Obviously Tom has the edge for finishing the job more and being the GOAT, but LeBron's generally not losing Finals because he doesn't show up.

Yes. In other words Lebron is not ManninHGH. Deer in headlights.

 

[TommyD420]

I qualified all of that with this line-

Of course, given that dynamic, it's reasonable to expect James would have been a more physical player as well.

I definitely don't hate James. I just think his game comes up short in the biggest spots. As Pats fans (and Boston based sports fans in general), we look at things through the lens of championships. He has some, but he's lacking.

James has two 'balls' performances that stand out to me. Well, three.

First was his first finals when he got swept, when the second-best player on his team was Zydrunas ****ing Ilgauskas.

Second was game 6 AT the Garden in the conference finals in 2012. Wade was limping on one knee, Bosh was a basket case because of Garnett, and James had 45 and 15 and won the game, the series and eventually the championship.

Third was 2 years ago, against Golden State, when both Love and Irving were out, and he forced that to a 6-game series. It was seriously Lebron vs. the Warriors, and he gutted through.

He's had his moments, there just were more than 3 channels on TV, with Bird, Magic, Kareem and Jordan. :shrug:

I watched the Lakers v. Celtics 30 for 30 yesterday (and part 3 on my phone since it's not on TV until tonight), and the 80s were the way I'd much prefer the game to be played. Ball movement. Running the floor. Actual defense and physical play. Jordan struggled in that era, and didn't really come into his own until the league moved to that iso-style, where every game was 78-76 and was just excruciating to watch. Still exciting, but excruciating for sure.

I think Jordan would be a top player in any era, and he would flourish today without the hand-check, but I also see James learning his post game earlier on (Kobe too for that matter) and dominating as well.

I think part of James' problem is the era he plays in, to be honest. The top players are a bunch of soft babies who don't play any defense (with a few exceptions). They game's more open in terms of spacing, but there's no running, and with the lack of defense being played, every game should look like an all-star game score. The Warriors scored 140 I think in game 2, and everyone went crazy, so I went back and looked. Happened 3 times in the 84 and 85 finals.

I like scoring. I like the 3-point shot, and wished teams had used it more back in the day, but the lack of defense is so frustrating, and nobody pays for going to the basket. Kyrie Irving finishes every layup on his ass, but not because someone put him there. And if they did, it would be a flagrant 435784390535 and the player would be suspended forever.

 

[TommyD420]

He did fold in Game 3, but overall his performances in championships have been pretty strong aside from perhaps his first. When he's lost he's lost to strong teams from a strong conference generally.

I mean, to be fair, Brady wasn't great in his SB losses. He was good and got leads at the end, but was also pretty ineffective for long periods.

LeBron literally needed to score 60 a night to beat this GS team. He wasn't perfect but he did as much as you could ask a single player to do, and usually does in the playoffs/Finals. Not that he doesn't deserve criticism at times.

He'd played 14 seasons and been to the Finals 8 times. We all talk up Tom for doing something similar - being so consistently competitive. Obviously Tom has the edge for finishing the job more and being the GOAT, but LeBron's generally not losing Finals because he doesn't show up.

33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 assists on 56.4% shooting, and 39% from 3. Also a steal and a half, and a block.

Averaged.

In the finals.

I really don't know what the hell else the guy's supposed to do.

 

[O.Z.O.]

James has two 'balls' performances that stand out to me. Well, three.

First was his first finals when he got swept, when the second-best player on his team was Zydrunas ****ing Ilgauskas.

Second was game 6 AT the Garden in the conference finals in 2012. Wade was limping on one knee, Bosh was a basket case because of Garnett, and James had 45 and 15 and won the game, the series and eventually the championship.

Third was 2 years ago, against Golden State, when both Love and Irving were out, and he forced that to a 6-game series. It was seriously Lebron vs. the Warriors, and he gutted through.

He's had his moments, there just were more than 3 channels on TV, with Bird, Magic, Kareem and Jordan. :shrug:

I watched the Lakers v. Celtics 30 for 30 yesterday (and part 3 on my phone since it's not on TV until tonight), and the 80s were the way I'd much prefer the game to be played. Ball movement. Running the floor. Actual defense and physical play. Jordan struggled in that era, and didn't really come into his own until the league moved to that iso-style, where every game was 78-76 and was just excruciating to watch. Still exciting, but excruciating for sure.

I think Jordan would be a top player in any era, and he would flourish today without the hand-check, but I also see James learning his post game earlier on (Kobe too for that matter) and dominating as well.

I think part of James' problem is the era he plays in, to be honest. The top players are a bunch of soft babies who don't play any defense (with a few exceptions). They game's more open in terms of spacing, but there's no running, and with the lack of defense being played, every game should look like an all-star game score. The Warriors scored 140 I think in game 2, and everyone went crazy, so I went back and looked. Happened 3 times in the 84 and 85 finals.

I like scoring. I like the 3-point shot, and wished teams had used it more back in the day, but the lack of defense is so frustrating, and nobody pays for going to the basket. Kyrie Irving finishes every layup on his ass, but not because someone put him there. And if they did, it would be a flagrant 435784390535 and the player would be suspended forever.

Can't argue with any of this.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 assists on 56.4% shooting, and 39% from 3. Also a steal and a half, and a block.

Averaged.

In the finals.

I really don't know what the hell else the guy's supposed to do.

Game 3.

Don't let your team go 0-12 or whatever in the final moments. You are 6'9" 265. You can drive and dunk on anyone. You hardly ever get called. Put the team on your back if you're the supposed GOAT, take control, and score.

It's not the time of the game or series to be dishing it.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Game 3.

Don't let your team go 0-12 or whatever in the final moments. You are 6'9" 265. You can drive and dunk on anyone. You hardly ever get called. Put the team on your back if you're the supposed GOAT, take control, and score.

It's not the time of the game or series to be dishing it.

Sure but it's not like his MO is to punk out in big moments, even if he did in Game 3. There have been countless playoff games over the past decade that his teams won because he was literally their entire offense.

Peyton Manning he is not.

 

[Mazz22]

Lebron will not win again if this GS team stays together.